Leaving Dell Dimension 8300 running 24/7 ...?

Discussion in 'Dell' started by Thomas G. Marshall, Feb 12, 2005.

  1. lol....


    Paul Schilter coughed up:
     
    Thomas G. Marshall, Feb 15, 2005
    #41
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  2. coughed up:

    ....[rip]...

    I find your observations to be fascinating. Would you add some to this?

    1. How many machines in each group (roughly), at any given time?

    2. What precisely are the difference in the two environments? I mean:

    a. are the ambient temperatures different?
    b. are some on the cleaner power of ups's and the like?
    c. does anyone big and hairy hit them with their fists?

    Thanks
     
    Thomas G. Marshall, Feb 15, 2005
    #42
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  3. Thomas G. Marshall

    Conor Guest

    What a crock of red herring shit. This happens with most stuff because
    of things like capacitor failure in PSUs. Its not noticed until its
    turned off then won't power up. Big deal. If the cost of a new £15 PSU
    is a problem you can't afford a PC in the first place.
     
    Conor, Feb 15, 2005
    #43
  4. Thomas G. Marshall

    Conor Guest

    Bullshit. Ever heard of thermal creep?
     
    Conor, Feb 15, 2005
    #44
  5. Thomas G. Marshall

    Conor Guest

    Shame you learnt jack shit then.
    You mean questions like.."Whats that round thing?"
     
    Conor, Feb 15, 2005
    #45
  6. Thomas G. Marshall

    steve Guest

    About 2000 in the development group. All the rest in the company I
    call admin. That's every other computer in a big company - about
    15,000 people and most had a computer.
    Admin. Normal office environment. 65 to 75F most areas air
    conditioned.

    Most of the development systems were in computer rooms. 70F all air
    conditioned.
    Not sure what that means. If you mean power outs, they are very rare.
    Only when something goes wrong!
     
    steve, Feb 15, 2005
    #46
  7. Thomas G. Marshall

    Dave Budd Guest

    ....or you could use a computer language, like Python.
     
    Dave Budd, Feb 15, 2005
    #47
  8. Thomas G. Marshall

    Ben Myers Guest

    Puhleeeze! Does this have to be such an emotional issue as to inspire(?)
    insulting language? ... Ben Myers
     
    Ben Myers, Feb 15, 2005
    #48
  9. coughed up:
    IIRC, UPS's (not to spark off ;) another debate) are known for straightening
    out power surges, small spikes, and other non-conforming anti-sine-waves.
    I'm guessing that a cleaner signal as such would less approximate
    jump-discontinuities in the wave form, harsh slopes, etc., that might change
    the wear and tear on the equipment. All educated guessing, but from my
    engineering background.

    Rules me out then :) Good think I'm not part of the sampling...... I hit
    machines for the heck of it.... :)
     
    Thomas G. Marshall, Feb 15, 2005
    #49
  10. Conor coughed up:

    Conor, you seem to be very educated. You seemed armed to the teeth with
    counter information, which is certainly not a failing. However, if you take
    the teeth out of your end of the conversation you'll much more soundly
    defeat your adversary, without fail, every time.
     
    Thomas G. Marshall, Feb 15, 2005
    #50
  11. Dave Budd coughed up:

    {gack} :) . Explanation: I was using Python in the ugly very early days
    when it barely worked. I had to write loops and control code in specific
    ways to avoid known bugs. I'm sure it's solid by now, but I was using it in
    the days when things were rotten, and I'm still feeling the emotional
    scarring... :)
     
    Thomas G. Marshall, Feb 15, 2005
    #51
  12. Thomas G. Marshall

    Dave Budd Guest

    ;->
    I bet you'd still rather do that than write VBscript, though.
    I know I would
     
    Dave Budd, Feb 15, 2005
    #52
  13. Thomas G. Marshall

    w_tom Guest

    Look for the let-through voltage on UPSes. 120 VAC plug-in
    UPSes typically ignore all surges and noise until that voltage
    exceeds 330 volts. It does nothing for harmonic problems. IOW
    it does not "straightening out power surges, small spikes, and
    other
    non-conforming anti-sine-waves." Furthermore it only claims
    protection from one, typically irrelevant, type of transient.

    Most plug-in UPSes output greatest noise and spikes when in
    battery backup mode. This UPS, unloaded in battery backup
    mode, outputs two 200 volt square waves with a 270 volt spike
    between those square waves. When not in battery backup mode,
    harmonics from AC mains connect directly through the UPS.
    Plug-in UPSes short the consumer of facts so that a consumer
    will *assume* it protects from all types of transients.

    All are encouraged to verify this UPS output power on an
    oscilloscope. That 200 volt square wave is called a modified
    sine wave - so that you hope it outputs cleaner power. Yes a
    square wave composed of sine waves - of many frequencies which
    therefore makes the power 'dirtier'.

    To get the 'cleaner' power from a plug-in UPS, that UPS
    would cost $500+ retail list. Such clean power is not found
    in $100 plug-in UPSes. But then power supply specs as even
    demanded by Intel makes this worry about 'cleaner' power
    irrelevant. Power supplies are why computer grade UPSes can
    output such 'dirty' power. Computer grade UPS output is so
    'dirty' that it may even damage some samll electric motors.
     
    w_tom, Feb 15, 2005
    #53
  14. Thomas G. Marshall

    steve Guest

    Ah! UPS. I read it as ups's as in ups and downs. I assumed you were
    talking about supply fluctuations.

    We don't need UPS. All the computer rooms and most of the offices are
    on very stable supplies. Mean time between fails is years. Even the
    domestic supply that my home PCs are on hardly ever fails. I can only
    remember one fail in the last few years.
     
    steve, Feb 15, 2005
    #54
  15. Thomas G. Marshall

    Ernie B. Guest

    Probably mostly true, although it's no trick at all to use a low-pass
    filter to deal with the higher harmonics.
    It doesn't, which is the reason to have the UPS feed a surge
    suppressor, usually a box of transorbs, with the output of the
    suppressor feeding the computer system. Keep in mind that the
    purpose of a UPS is to allow an orderly system shut down when
    everything else goes dark.
    <snip>
     
    Ernie B., Feb 15, 2005
    #55
  16. Thomas G. Marshall

    Ben Myers Guest

    Ah, you're lucky. Out here in the remote wilds of Central Massachusetts, not 30
    miles from the metropolis of Boston, power outages, drops, and surges are all
    too frequent, even within industrial complexes. UPS equipment is a necessity
    for one who cares about the reliability of ones computers and the continued
    availability of ones data.

    Together with the crumbling highways and aging decrepit railroads, I guess this
    means that the U.S. infrastructure is falling apart even as we now speak. Or
    maybe it was never as good as we all thought it was? ... Ben Myers
     
    Ben Myers, Feb 15, 2005
    #56
  17. [Prior exchanges involved in UPS misunderstanding snipped.]
    Indeed he is, Ben. Virginia Power gets their hamsters from the
    lowest bidder. On a just-in-time basis. Which those poor,
    starved, weakling hamsters never make. So even in a *good*
    month, we see at least one or two power drops. Don't even ask
    about winter - particularly since we aren't out of it yet. :-(
     
    Ogden Johnson III, Feb 15, 2005
    #57
  18. Thomas G. Marshall

    w_tom Guest

    As other have demonstrated, the purpose of a plug-in UPS is
    to protect data from blackouts and extreme brownouts. Other
    functions sometimes used to recommend a UPS must already be
    solved elsewhere - such as inside a computer's power supply.

    For example, if AC line voltage dips so low that
    incandescent bulbs are at 40% intensity, then the computer
    power must still provide sufficient power to a fully loaded
    computer. This is even demanded by Intel specs. Ae UPS would
    be for brownouts that are more extreme.

    For example, a line filter was recommended for harmonics.
    Why? First any properly constructed power supply (which does
    not include some clone computers) contains an AC line filter.
    Furthermore, the harmonics that one may worry about could be
    destructive to some small electric motors. But harmonics must
    not adversely affect a computer's power supply. A computer
    grade UPSes can output so many powerful harmonics that a
    modified sine wave is a 200 volt square wave. And still those
    harmonics must be irrelevant to any minimally sufficient
    computer.

    For example, UPS manufacturers recommend no protector on
    UPS outputs. Why? Again, that output waveform when in
    battery backup mode. Either the UPS can be damaged or the
    protector is degraded quickly. Either way, UPS manufacturers
    (quietly) recommend no protectors on UPS outputs. But again,
    why would one waste good money on that very expensive plug-in
    protector when the same circuit is already inside a UPS's AC
    power input? Furthermore, anything that will provide
    sufficient protection at that computer must already be inside
    that computer. Some clone computers are missing such
    essential functions which is but another reason for buying a
    properly constructed machine (rather than trying to save
    pennies).

    Above three examples to increase computer reliability are
    not recommended for technical reasons. In each case, a
    computer (such as the Dell) meets industry standard and Intel
    specifications making those 'solutions' unnecessary. Again,
    some clone computers are missing essential functions which may
    be why some then recommend unnecessary devices such as
    protectors or low pass filters.
     
    w_tom, Feb 16, 2005
    #58
  19. Thomas G. Marshall

    Roger Wilco Guest

    Power up (or more accurately heat-up cool-down) causes wear to what
    would otherwise be considered non-moving parts. It is no myth that
    things expand with increased temperature and contract with decreased
    temperature.

    Electric motor circuitry experiences an amperage surge during spinup
    that is above its normal operating amperage because the motor has not
    yet created a sufficient back-voltage to counter the applied voltage.
    Most mechanical devices are designed to operate within a certain range
    of temperatures, and at power-up time it may be outside of that
    specification.

    I'm sure that well designed computers will suffer little ill effects
    from either scenario - but that does not mean power-up wear is a myth.
     
    Roger Wilco, Feb 16, 2005
    #59
  20. Thomas G. Marshall

    User N Guest

    Oh, so that is the only thing you'll be scanning with on a daily
    basis? If so, I'd be interested to know why you feel it is
    necessary to perform full NAV2003 scans every day.
     
    User N, Feb 16, 2005
    #60
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