Need help to install OS9 on a mac that use to but now can't - postOSX.5

Discussion in 'Apple' started by Danny, Jul 23, 2009.

  1. Danny

    Danny Guest

    I tried to install OS10.5 and somehow it wiped out something that let
    me have OS9 installed. Some driver or something is missing and I can't
    figure it out.

    I actually MUST have OS9 to get some music tracks exported to be used
    in newer software. Can anyone save my arse?

    Thanks you thank you thank you - my your world be wonderful for
    helping :)
     
    Danny, Jul 23, 2009
    #1
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  2. "Classic" or what most refer to as OS 9 doesn't run on 10.5, so you're
    out of luck there.

    Also, "Classic" doesn't run on Intel Macs, so you must have done this on
    a PPC system. You _might_ be able to cobble together a Sheepshaver
    emulator on an Intel Mac that runs MacOS 8.1 but the music stuff is gone.

    Unless you have a full backup of your system before you installed 10.5,
    you're totally hosed and it sucks big time to be you.
     
    Michael Vilain, Jul 23, 2009
    #2
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  3. Danny

    David Empson Guest

    The main question is how you were using Mac OS 9 before, which depends
    to a large degree on which Mac model you have.

    Were you rebooting the computer to run Mac OS 9, or were you running Mac
    OS 9 applications while booted into Mac OS X?

    The "reboot into Mac OS 9" method only works on older Mac models (sold
    in 2002 or earlier, plus some models from 2003 and early 2004).

    The "alongside Mac OS X" option works on any Mac with a PowerPC
    processor running Mac OS X 10.0 through 10.4.11. This facility is known
    as the "Classic" environment.

    Support for "Classic" was removed in Mac OS X 10.5. It also doesn't
    exist for any Mac with an Intel processor.


    I'll assume you were using "Classic" to run selected Mac OS 9
    applications while booted into Mac OS X, and you were previously running
    Mac OS X 10.4.

    Assuming your hard drive is not partitioned, then you have probably done
    an "Upgrade" or "Archive and Install" to replace your previous Mac OS X
    10.4 system with Mac OS X 10.5.

    Mac OS 9 is probably still on the hard drive (unless you chose to erase
    the drive when installing 10.5), but you can't use it any more because
    Mac OS X 10.5 doesn't support "Classic".

    If you want to be able to run Mac OS 9 applications again, you have two
    basic plans of attack:


    1. Install a new copy of Mac OS X 10.4 on a second partition or another
    hard drive, and reboot from that system when you need to run Mac OS 9
    applications.

    (You probably don't need to reinstall Mac OS 9 - Mac OS X 10.4's
    "Classic" can be told to use the Mac OS 9 system on your 10.5 partition
    or drive.)

    Your user account, documents, mail, etc. will not exist in the newly
    installed copy of 10.4 - you will be starting afresh as a new user on
    that system.

    Files on the other hard drive or partition can be accessed while booted
    into a different system, but you are likely to run into issues with file
    ownership and permissions unless you happen to end up with a user
    account with the same ID number on both systems. That will depend on
    whether your user account on the main system is the original one or one
    which was added.


    2. Reinstall Mac OS X 10.4 on your existing partition, replacing Mac OS
    X 10.5.

    There is a major catch with this method: once you've started using Mac
    OS X 10.5, many essential files in your user account will have been
    upgraded to work with the new system, and are no longer compatible with
    10.4. If you replace 10.5 with 10.4 and keep using the same user
    account, you will have major problems.

    For example, you are likely to lose everything in Mail, Address Book and
    iCal, since they use databases which changed format in 10.5.

    The best way to revert to 10.4 would be to restore a complete backup of
    your system that you took before installing 10.5.

    If you didn't take a complete backup, then you will have a much more
    difficult task getting 10.4 working again, and you would be better off
    using the other method (install 10.4 on a different partition or drive).
     
    David Empson, Jul 23, 2009
    #3
  4. Danny

    JF Mezei Guest

    Another option is to install Sheepshaver (a PPC emulator which also runs
    on PPC machines) and load up a real OS-9 or 8.6 onto it and just run
    your old application to convert your remaining files to a standard format.

    This is what I have to do for my soundedit files to convert them to
    ..aiff to be usable by OS-X applications which don't understand the old
    sound edit format.

    I've found sheepshaver to *just* work enough to convert files. Make
    backups of your .dmg disks that Shaepshaver accesses because they easily
    get corrupted by sheepshaver.
     
    JF Mezei, Jul 23, 2009
    #4
  5. Go back to OS X 10.4.11. OS X 10.5 does not support Classic, and
    therefore you cannot have OS 9 installed under OS X 10.5.
     
    Michelle Steiner, Jul 23, 2009
    #5
  6. Danny

    Danny T Guest

    Rather then post under all the others I'm going to hopefully reach
    everyone here with this one.

    The issue is that I DO have an old mac but tried to install OS10.5 on
    it. When I did that, the system install disk erased something on the
    HD that let OS9 install at all. I have reinstalled OS10.4 and even
    tried to install just OS9 but I can not. There is something missing
    off the HD that allows this to happen. I forget the exact warning box
    but I did call apple at the time. Apple said - sorry, you can't
    install os9 anymore because os10.5 erased some form of driver from
    something other then my HD- like form firm ware or something. The lady
    didn't elaborate and I couldn't translate your fast talk but that is
    what I got out of it.

    Anyway, I need to BOOT in OS9 to be able to use Cubase VST5.1 to
    retrieve tracks that I must have. I have two choices as I see it,: 1
    make my old mac run, 2, buy another old mac with OS9 on it. That would
    have been my first choice but I need a bunch of memory and something
    that won't die on me - used is risky biz.

    ANy ideas are GREATLY welcomed. Anyone with an old G4 for sale let me
    know

    Anyone know what the fasted, best machine that still boots up in OS9,
    that would help a lot. I have a feeling that will be my best route
    since they are so cheap and I'm not. I just need to get the job done.
    The machine must BOOT in OS9, not just have OS9 inside of os10x.
    Cubase will not run in the classic environment, it must run in native
    OS9 from an OS9 boot disk.

    Thanks again
     
    Danny T, Jul 23, 2009
    #6
  7. Danny

    David Empson Guest

    Ah, that is a simpler problem than I was assuming in my earlier post.
    The most likely explanation:

    If you erased the hard drive at any stage during the procedure of
    installing 10.5 or reinstalling 10.4, you may have neglected to check
    the box to install the Mac OS 9 driver. Without that, Mac OS 9 can't
    boot from the hard drive, and the Mac OS 9 installer probably won't let
    you install it unless you erase the drive first.

    Easily fixed: use Disk Utility while booted from the Mac OS X 10.4 DVD
    (it is under the Utilities menu). Select the icon for the hard drive on
    the left side, click on the Partition tab, select the desired number of
    partitions (probably 1 - don't use "Current"), check the box to install
    Mac OS 9 drivers, and click the Partition buton.

    You will then need to reinstall Mac OS X 10.4 again, but should now be
    able to install Mac OS 9 after booting from the Mac OS 9 install CD.


    I'd be very surprised if installing 10.5 did anything which affected the
    computer's firmware in such a way that it cannot use Mac OS 9 any more.
    You should be able to get your old Mac running Mac OS 9 again.
    That would be a Mirrored Drive Doors PowerMac G4, either the mid 2002
    series or the mid 2003 series. The fastest models in either series were
    dual 1.25 GHz G4s. They take up to 2 GB of RAM (though not all can be
    used by Mac OS 9) and have four hard drive bays, two of which are
    ATA/100.

    The catch: you have to avoid the early 2003 Mirrored Drive Doors
    PowerMac G4, as that series cannot boot Mac OS 9. They look almost
    identical to the other MDD PowerMac G4s. The only distinguishing feature
    of this series is that it added a Firewire 800 port. The other MDD
    PowerMac G4s have two FW400 ports but no FW800 port.

    The early 2003 series included a dual 1.25 GHz model, so if you are
    investigating a model of that configuration, check whether it has
    Firewire 800. (There was also a dual 1.42 GHz model in this series.)

    This page has sufficient details to tell them apart, and a full list of
    specifications, including the previous two PowerMac G4 generations
    (QuickSilver).

    <http://support.apple.com/kb/TA25585>

    This thread agrees with me and has some useful points:

    <http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1398487>
     
    David Empson, Jul 23, 2009
    #7
  8. OK. Boot from your 10.4 install disk, run Disk Utility from it, and
    reformat the drive; there's an option to install OS 9 drivers (or
    something like that). Then install OS X 10.4 and OS 9.

    -- Michelle
     
    Michelle Steiner, Jul 23, 2009
    #8
  9. Danny

    Danny T Guest

    Again to all - Thank you but still no go.

    I have the os9 Driver installed on a newly partitioned drive but in
    order to install os9 I have two choices: first option is to use the
    "installed" os9 to boot the install program which of course can not be
    done because there is no os9 to run or second, use the bootable os9
    install disk or restore disk. The problem is that neither of those
    disks will start. I get a grey screen, and no happy mac.

    When I tried to install os10.5, i recall needing to do some type of
    firm ware update. It has been a long time so I forget the details and
    cannot find them on apple to help me recall. Apparently os10.5 writes
    something on these old macs (this is a g4-400 that has a processor
    upgrade to a 1.5 ghz). Somewhere along the line I killed the ability
    to boot in os9 or boot os9 disks at all.

    I have found a few machines for under $200 that I can buy and not have
    to deal with this anymore. If anyone thinks of anything last minute,
    please let me know. I don't come here often but I will be checking.

    For those of you that have helped me out, thank you for all your time
    even if it didn't end up fixing things. If I can be of any help to any
    of you I would like to return the favor. If you need help in any area
    of music (business or recording) please let me know. You can always
    reach me through http://demosmasters.com or http://sandycovepublishing.com

    Thanks again

    Danny
     
    Danny T, Jul 23, 2009
    #9
  10. Is the label on your OS 9 install disk black or grey? If it's grey,
    then it is an OEM install disk, which will work only with the model it
    shipped with, which may not be the computer you are trying to install it
    on.
     
    Michelle Steiner, Jul 23, 2009
    #10
  11. Danny

    Danny T Guest

    Hi, It is the disk it shipped with. I've tried the install, restore
    and everything else I've gathered over the years. No worries though, a
    few bucks for a new machine only means the wait to me. I do appreciate
    the help though I think its time to call it a day and just buy another
    machine. I think I've reached the peak of diminishing return.
     
    Danny T, Jul 23, 2009
    #11
  12. Danny

    John Albert Guest

    Danny wrote:
    "Anyway, I need to BOOT in OS9 to be able to use Cubase
    VST5.1 to retrieve tracks that I must have."

    No OS X-compatible version of Cubase can read those tracks?

    There are versions of Cubase that run just dandy with OS X.

    You might present your problem in two other forums:
    - alt.steinberg.cubase
    and
    forum.cubase.net

    - John
     
    John Albert, Jul 23, 2009
    #12
  13. Danny

    David Empson Guest

    Given that it is the correct CD for that computer, there are a couple of
    things you could try.

    1. Parameter RAM reset.

    Restart the computer while holdding down Command-Option-P-R. Keep
    holding them down until you hear a second startup chime, then release
    them and try booting from the Mac OS 9 CD by holding down the 'C' key.

    2. Open Firmware reset.

    Restart the computer while holding down Command-Option-O-F. Keep holding
    them down until you see a white screen with black text, which tells you
    that you can let go of the keys.

    Now type in the following commands:

    reset-nvram
    reset-all
    shutdown

    Then start up the computer again, holding down the 'C' key to boot from
    the Mac OS 9 CD.
    Presumably a PowerMac G4, but 400 MHz could be either of two models (PCI
    Graphics, or AGP Graphics).

    The PCI Graphics model ("Yikes") never had any firmware updates. It
    can't run Mac OS X 10.5 at all, so I doubt you have this one.

    The AGP Graphics model ("Sawtooth") did have several firmware updates,
    and they would have been required to run any version of Mac OS X after
    about 10.2. The last such firmware update was somewhere around 2001.

    I doubt the computer's firmware is a factor in Mac OS 9 not booting.


    I suspect your processor upgrade is the primary cause of the problem.

    The original copy Mac OS 9 is probably not able to boot from a third
    party processor upgrade, UNTIL you have installed some support files on
    the bootable system on the hard drive.

    The only way to do that would be:

    1. Remove the third party processor and reinstall the original one which
    came with the PowerMac G4.

    2. Boot Mac OS 9 from CD, install it on the hard drive, and boot from
    that copy of the system. Install any updates required (e.g. get it up to
    9.2.2 as your original system is probably Mac OS 9.0.x. It could even be
    Mac OS 8.6, in which case you'd need to find a retail Mac OS 9 CD and
    install that).

    3. Locate the support files for the third party processor and install
    them in the Mac OS 9 system on the hard drive.

    4. Swap the third party processor back into the computer again.
    If you manage to find a suitable later model PowerMac G4, make sure you
    get the original set of CDs with it. You MUST have the copy of Mac OS 9
    which was supplied with the computer for late model PowerMac G4s,
    because ones from earlier models won't boot.

    The AGP Graphics series has four memory slots but is limited to using
    1.5 GB of memory under Mac OS 9, and all later PowerMac G4 models
    support at least that much memory.

    The "Gigabit Ethernet" series (mid 2000) only has minor changes from
    your "AGP Graphics".

    The "Digital Audio" series (early 2001) has a faster memory bus (PC133),
    but only three memory slots (maximum 1.5 GB).

    The "QuickSilver" series (mid 2001 and early 2002) are the same
    architecture as "Digital Audio". They had a visual makeover externally
    and various component upgrades. The last such model was a dual 1 GHz G4
    (I have one).

    The "Mirrored Drive Doors" series (mid 2002) was a major overhaul - new
    memory architecture (up to 2 GB of PC-2100/PC-2700 DDR), new I/O chipset
    and bus structure, added a faster ATA bus, internal and external case
    redesign, much noisier fans.


    Check the specifications before trying your third party processor in any
    later model. I expect it would work in a "Gigabit Ethernet", "Digital
    Audio" or "QuickSilver" but it might not be compatible with a "Mirrored
    Drive Doors".

    A dual 1.25 GHz Mirrored Drive Doors G4 with its standard processor may
    outperform your 1.5 GHz AGP Graphics G4, except in some CPU-bound tasks,
    due to the faster system bus, memory and ATA bus.
     
    David Empson, Jul 24, 2009
    #13
  14. Danny

    Danny T Guest

    Thanks John but I have. I actually have SX, SL3, Cubase4 and currently
    run Cubase5. believe it or not, they can't translate the files. I just
    got Cubase5 and it actually does translate SL3 files which cubase4 did
    not. That was a nice treat because some of my files were in sl3. The
    older of the versions, sx may translate but I don't have anything to
    run that on either. I think i have it covered. I just got a G4 with an
    upgraded cpu that does 1.5 and has a gig of ram. Right now I'm trying
    to install the old stuff but man is it labor intensive. I'll be really
    glad when I get that stuff updated and mastered!

    Thanks for your help
     
    Danny T, Jul 24, 2009
    #14
  15. Danny

    Danny T Guest

    David, again, thank you for all your time. I will try this later
    though I just blew my steak night out dinner money on another old
    machine. I'll give this a try - its an AGP Graphics by the way. Thanks
    again
     
    Danny T, Jul 24, 2009
    #15
  16. You have probably made a re-initializing when you installed 10.5 by
    clicking 'Erase & install'. This is done as default with the GUID +
    HFS+(Journalized) format, which is unable to install and run OS 9.x -
    booted or classic envirement doesn't matter. To 'retain' the
    functionality back, you must initialize and partition the disk with the
    APM (Apple partition map).

    Open the DiskUtility -> Partition, click on 'Options nown left and
    select 'APM', click OK and select the numbers of partitions you'd like
    to have and then click 'Initialize'/'Apply' button on the upcoming dialog.

    The best you can do is to get another harddisk of size 20-80gb and
    initialize this in APM + HFS+ format and without the journalizing
    enabled. Boot from the OS 9.x CD and initialize the disk with the
    DriveSetup from the Utilities folder, then you're sure that the disk is
    initialized and formatted with the APM + HFS+.
    No, and Cubase doesn't like dual processors either.:-( - I discovered
    this myself on my CPU upgraded QuickSilver dual G4/1,8ghz... But the
    file format on the OS 9.x version of Cubase is compatible with the
    newest Cubase SX version for OS x, But rather expensive to upgrade...

    The latest Mac that can boot into Os 9.2.2 is the MDD Dual 1,25ghz with
    Firewire 400. The MDD Dual 1,25ghz with Firewire 800 doesnot boot in Os
    9.x. Remembering the above, I'd go for a MDD Single 1,25ghz. It is fast,
    but of course not as fast as the dual model. I've just bought one
    myself, because both my old Beige G3 and PM 9600 seem to have left this
    world in favor of the eternal computer fileds.:) - And like you I still
    need to be able to boot into Os 9.2.x

    cheers, Erik Richard

    --
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Erik Richard Sørensen, Member of ADC, <>
    NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Text Processing - www.nisus.com
    OpenOffice.org - The Modern Productivity Solution - www.openoffice.org
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     
    Erik Richard Sørensen, Jul 25, 2009
    #16
  17. This is normally done as default on PowerPC machines...
    I tried this twice on my 'test machine' a MDD dual 1ghz. Leopard erases
    the Os 9.x stuff if on the same partition, but not if on different
    partitions.

    cheers, Erik Richard

    --
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Erik Richard Sørensen, Member of ADC, <>
    NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Text Processing - www.nisus.com
    OpenOffice.org - The Modern Productivity Solution - www.openoffice.org
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     
    Erik Richard Sørensen, Jul 25, 2009
    #17
  18. strange, the firmware update normally has nothing to do with
    bootability... You don't mention your Mac model? - some machines like
    the QS/QuickSilver and MDD/MirroredDriveDoor require at least a Os 9.2.1
    retail Cd or the accompagning install disks to boot one of these.
    DA/DigitalAudio requires at least 9.1.0.
    Do read my post about the initializing problems and methods, it may be
    as simple as that... - And regarding new machines, go for a MDD single
    1,25ghz. Here you get the absolute most valuable machine for your purposes.

    cheers, Erik Richard

    --
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Erik Richard Sørensen, Member of ADC, <>
    NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Text Processing - www.nisus.com
    OpenOffice.org - The Modern Productivity Solution - www.openoffice.org
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     
    Erik Richard Sørensen, Jul 25, 2009
    #18
  19. Eeeeh? - all my _retail_ Os 9.1 and 9.2.x - Danish, US and Polish -
    disks are grey. None of them were delievered with a machine.

    cheers, Erik Richard

    --
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Erik Richard Sørensen, Member of ADC, <>
    NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Text Processing - www.nisus.com
    OpenOffice.org - The Modern Productivity Solution - www.openoffice.org
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     
    Erik Richard Sørensen, Jul 25, 2009
    #19
  20. Yes, but rather expensive to upgrade from the Os 9.x ver. Cubase VST 5.x
    / Cubase RTAS 5.x to the OS X Cubase SX versions. Hereto also that I
    don't find the OS X version by near as good as the Os 9.x version. -
    Then it would be better simply to buy Amadeus Pro (full VST/RTAS/AU
    compatible) from www.hairersoft.com instead. But here the problem comes,
    if the Cubase files are saved in the Cubase file format, which cannot be
    opened by Amadeus.

    If saved in fx. RAW Audio even Cubase files can be opened. Amadeus Pro
    support at least up to 24 tracks. - I've tried it with 24 tracks and
    then my 28" monitor was filled up..-) - But the 'Add' button was still
    active, so it should be possible to add at least up to maybe as many as
    48 tracks. - Anyway though, - it's best to have all tracks visible on
    your screen.:))

    cheers, Erik Richard

    --
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Erik Richard Sørensen, Member of ADC, <>
    NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Text Processing - www.nisus.com
    OpenOffice.org - The Modern Productivity Solution - www.openoffice.org
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     
    Erik Richard Sørensen, Jul 25, 2009
    #20
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