Need New PC recommendations/info

Discussion in 'Dell' started by Dan, Jan 17, 2005.

  1. Dan

    Steve Guest

    I disagree, do you forget about AMD budget line of Cpu's?
    Like the AMD Duron which compete against the Intel Celeron Cpu's.
    The AMD CPU's run cooler and are better value for the buck.

    Compare prices at http://www.pricewatch.com in CPU section.

    AMD based motherboards are as cheap or cheaper than Intel
    motherboard.

    Compare prices http://www.pricewatch.com in Motherboard section.


    Steve
     
    Steve, Jan 19, 2005
    #21
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  2. Dan

    Mac Cool Guest

    S.Lewis:
    I tried to sell an emachines PC without the restore disk on ebay and they
    cancelled the auction and sent me an email stating that I would have to
    state clearly in the auction that there were restore cds or that I had
    reformatted the hard drive.

    I'm sure they don't stop everyone but they got me on the first day.
     
    Mac Cool, Jan 19, 2005
    #22
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  3. Dan

    Dave C. Guest

    I disagree, do you forget about AMD budget line of Cpu's?
    No, I did not forget about them. If you are building on a tight budget, AMD
    is clearly the better choice. But for the average system, a celeron or
    sempron (new duron) is usually not considered.

    At the low end and high end, AMD is a better value. But if you research
    CAREFULLY, you will find that mid-level performance systems are about the
    same price to build. If anything, Intel systems are a tad cheaper to build
    in that sweet spot that most builders aim for, sometimes referred to as
    "best bang for buck". -Dave
     
    Dave C., Jan 19, 2005
    #23
  4. Dan

    Mac Cool Guest

    Steve:
    Don't use pricewatch. I know the format is convenient but it's unrealiable
    for pricing information. Half the companies that sell there practice bait-
    n-switch (advertising errors) or put their products in the wrong category
    intentionally.

    I like dealtime.com, but there are others.
     
    Mac Cool, Jan 19, 2005
    #24
  5. Dan

    Steve Guest

    Ok prove it.....do your own research using Intel parts and
    finding that "best bang for the buck".
    Then I will post a AMD build and compare to yours on mid-range system.

    Steve
     
    Steve, Jan 19, 2005
    #25
  6. Dan

    kony Guest


    Let's not forget though that the Original WIndows CD and/or
    restore CDs are not needed for the buyer to legally use the
    installed Windows. License is not tied to media, system
    must have the Certificate of authenticity though. Ebay may
    not care, they can be fickle.
     
    kony, Jan 19, 2005
    #26
  7. Dan

    kony Guest


    No, that's just plain incorrect.
    For $200, _today_ you can get at most a Prescott 3.0 GHz, if
    you are a seasoned 'netizen. In a shop, people are paying
    $260 after shop markup. At older software, a $100 Athlon XP
    Barton is faster. At newer softare (possible excluding
    video editing with newer apps, but not necessarily) the
    Athlon 64 3400+ (currently just under $200 mark) is faster.
    Actually even the A64 3200+ is faster.

    However, you seem to be a bit confused about what "high end"
    system means too. P4 uses significantly more power.
    Requires more expensive heatsink for quiet operation.
    Requires more expensive power supply, another fan per same
    ambient case temps. That may be $40 right there, maybe even
    for power supply alone as higher amperage 12V PSU are
    disproportionately higher priced.

    So we have $40, plus considering that A64 3200 is closer
    performance, it can be had for $167. Already a $77 dollar
    difference for a slower P4 that only costs $200.
     
    kony, Jan 19, 2005
    #27
  8. Dan

    CBFalconer Guest

    I think, if you really peruse the EULA, you will find you violated
    it. You are not supposed to pass on anything, just buy more. Your
    customer MAY find his copy destroyed, because the EULA gives MS the
    right to insist on an upgrade (at the customers expense) at any
    time and the right to remove anything they deem improper.

    Always remember, the sole purpose of Windoze is to enrich
    MicroShaft at every twist and turn.
     
    CBFalconer, Jan 19, 2005
    #28
  9. Dan

    kony Guest


    What exactly do you mean by "You are not supposed to pass on
    anything, just buy more." ?

    It would seem everything is in order if the WinXP was either
    retail version or OEM sold with hardware that remained with
    that system, providing either way the COA (certificate of
    authenticity) stays with the system.

    The WinME on the other hand, is a writeoff, can't be used at
    all (at least according to typical OEM EULA).

    Real question though is if the buyer even benefitted.
    733MHz system isn't slow but it's going to be slower running
    XP that ME, at least after all the junk in ME is disabled to
    the point where it's just a slightly newer version of
    Win98SE. Over and over I hear how people found Win9x
    instable. Must be a different win9x, because I can set up a
    box with stable drivers and stable apps and it crashes so
    seldom it's not worth mentioning. It "might" not run for 8
    months' uptime, but for typical use, > $100 saved is a good
    deal for someone buying a system like P733 which isn't worth
    but a couple hundred if that.
     
    kony, Jan 20, 2005
    #29
  10. Dan

    Dave C. Guest

    I have done so already. My most recent build, I was looking at a P4 3.0
    versus a Athlon 64 3000. At the time, the two processors were identical in
    price, and identical in performance, with the AMD chip being faster at some
    certain tasks and the P4 being faster at others. Then I looked at cost of
    motherboards. Well-equipped ones were about thirty bucks more for the AMD
    chip. All other parts were identical. See, I planned out both complete
    systems on paper first, as I really didn't care which chip I used (AMD or
    Intel, whatever). I went into the project thinking that the AMD would be
    much cheaper. I was more than a little surprised to learn that not only was
    the AMD system not cheaper at all, but that the Intel system could be made
    for a little less money, without even putting any extraordinary effort into
    it. It came down to selection of mainboards . . . there were LOTS more
    chipsets and manufacturers putting out socket 478 mainboards at the time.
    More mainboards, more competition, lower prices on similarly equipped
    boards.

    NOW, looking at pricewatch, it looks like the mid-range processors favor AMD
    by about forty to sixty bucks. But add in the ~30 extra bucks you will need
    for the mainboard, and it's about equal. Or to put it in perspective . . .
    if you spent several hundred on computer parts, are you going to really
    claim that (~10 to ~30 bucks less) is much cheaper? -Dave
     
    Dave C., Jan 20, 2005
    #30
  11. Dan

    Dave C. Guest

    No, that's just plain incorrect.
    OK, you are half right. When I built recently (NOTE: when I built),
    mid-range processors were identical in price, talking AMD vs. Intel. Now,
    the mid-range AMD processors are cheaper, no doubt about it. But, you do
    not need a more expensive power supply for Intel. That is plain crap. If
    you choose the RIGHT power supply, it will work for either chip. So there
    is no price difference there. You also don't need any extraordinary cooling
    for a P4 system, either for processor or case. All components can be
    identical for either system (AMD or Intel), save for the obvious difference
    of the CPU cooler. But the CPU cooler can be had cheaply for either chip.
    Also, there is less selection of Athlon64 mainboards, so better bargains can
    be found in the P4 mainboards. (competition does that) So the extra money
    you pay for an Intel CPU -can- be partially recovered from the money you
    save buying the motherboard.

    As for performance, I have done extensive research on AMD vs. Intel. I have
    found that they are equal:
    (and note I back up my conclusions with links to numbers posted by
    well-regarded experts who agree with me)

    Gaming: OpenGL: The Intel chips are much faster
    Gaming: DX8: The AMD chips are faster, no doubt about it
    Gaming: DX9: It's virtually a tie, as the AMD chips are two to three
    TENTHS of a percentage point faster than Intel.
    So on the gaming benchmarks, that's one win for Intel, one win for AMD and
    one tie.
    GAMING OVERALL: TIED

    Business Applications: Office Applications: Intel blows AMD away
    Business Applications: Internet Content Creation: Intel blows AMD away
    Business Applications: Overall: Intel blows AMD away

    Video Encoding: This one is so lopsided, AMD should have thrown in the
    towel before entering the ring. Intel wins by a landslide.

    Audio Encoding: Again, Intel wins by a landslide

    Synthetic Benchmarks: (PC Mark 2004): Here, Intel blows AMD away on both
    *CPU* and memory benchmarks

    http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20040322/index.html

    The following is an article on the Athlon 64 2800+. But more interesting
    is,
    the benchmarks included in the article are a GREAT comparison of the 3.2GHz
    P4
    processors with the Athlon64 3200+. In this article, these two processors
    are
    pretty evenly matched, with Intel being faster on some benchmarks, and AMD
    being faster on others.

    http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2038&p=1

    Now lets look at what Sharky Extreme has to report in their article about
    the
    3.4GHz Prescott processor. This one has benchmarks that are a great
    comparison
    of the 3.4GHz Intel chips with the Athlon64 3400+. Here, you have to be
    careful,
    as Sharky doesn't organize their charts in order of fastest to slowest. And
    on
    some charts, LOWER scores are better. But if you read all the benchmarks,
    you
    will again notice that the two chips are pretty evenly matched, with AMD
    faster
    on some and Intel faster on others.

    http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/cpu/article.php/3261_3329681__1
     
    Dave C., Jan 20, 2005
    #31
  12. Dan

    JAD Guest

    BANG FOR THE BUCK you know unless that's tattooed on your ass, your not
    REALLY a AMD salesman. The best 'BANG' is a perfect name for AMD.
     
    JAD, Jan 20, 2005
    #32
  13. Don't apologize, you're right, but Linux really isn't for anyone who just
    wants to stick the cd in tray, install the OS and have it just "work". You
    should also make it clear that Linux is not a free copy of Windows.

    I know we've been through all that (and then some) since forever, so let's
    avoid a "WinLin" debate. But, if you are a student, there are literally
    hundreds of educational and scientific programs that will pretty much do
    your homework for you, and above all, there is no such thing as a virus.

    Of course, there is such an animal as pay software for Linux, but that is
    mostly corporate stuff.

    I am writing this with KNode, and my OS is Mandrake-10.1. But I have a
    couple of Windows machines on the network as well, so I have to get them
    all to play nice. It isn't for everyone, but it is my personal choice.

    You can request a free live cd of Ubuntu here:

    http://shipit.ubuntulinux.org

    This will run on your cdrom without changing your system at all, and will
    give you a feel of how things work in Linux.

    Michael
     
    Michael Hearne, Jan 20, 2005
    #33
  14. Dan

    CBFalconer Guest

    I recall hearing of some instances a few years ago where some
    charities were passing on old systems complete with MsDos or
    Windows mounted. Micro$haft stepped in and pointed out that their
    licenses were non-transferable, and that the charities or end users
    had to buy fresh copies. I believe this is still their policy, and
    is embedded in the EULA. I concede I may be wrong, or that MS may
    no longer be attempting to enforce this.
     
    CBFalconer, Jan 20, 2005
    #34
  15. Dan

    Al Smith Guest

    I think, if you really peruse the EULA, you will find you violated
    I've been lurking in the "microsoft.public.windows.general" group
    and the Microsoft flunkies are nuts on this subject, so I've
    absorbed a bit of information.

    If you buy a retail copy, you can sell it by itself, or you can
    transfer it to a new computer as often as you like, as long as you
    don't install copies on other computers, or sell copies. The idea
    is that it can be transferred, but it can't legally be multiplied,
    even by the original owner. This doesn't mean you can't make
    backups -- you just can't install a backup copy on a second machine.

    The OEM version is a completely different kettle of fish. It is
    attached at the hip to the computer with which it was sold. You
    can sell that computer with the OEM version installed, and its CD,
    but you cannot legally transfer it to any other computer, and you
    cannot sell the OEM version by itself (since it would be installed
    on another computer). People with OEM versions run into trouble
    when they upgrade their system so much that Microsoft considers it
    a different computer.

    Anyway, my point was, if you already own Windows, and you buy a
    computer with Windows installed, you are paying what is known as
    the "Microsoft tax" and that is a good reason to roll your own system.
     
    Al Smith, Jan 20, 2005
    #35
  16. Dan

    kony Guest

    Actually it is a fact that P4 uses more power,
    and it is a fact that power supplies are priced based on
    capacity, on average. Maybe you get luck and find a sale,
    or maybe you always buy more than you need, but that doesn't
    change things... anyone can pay more for more.

    Except that this "right power supply" has to be higher
    capacity to support the P4! If you're not factoring for
    this, you're either making the AMD buyer pay too much in the
    cost comparison, or the P4 system has lower power margins.

    Not extraordinary, simply MORE. Again, indisputable facts.
    P4 creates more heat. It IS necesary to have more airflow
    to remove that heat for the case to stay at same internal
    ambient temp. Likewise if someone doesn't always want to
    hear their heatsink, it takes a beefier heatsink to keep the
    P4 at same temp.

    So your justifying the price parity by making the margins on
    other parts in the P4 system thinner, to offset the cost of
    the P4. It doesn't work like that, you seem to be
    describing a low-end P4 system with a disproportionately
    priced CPU in it.
    If you don't care about noise, or again, if you're putting
    together a low-end P4 box with an expensive CPU in it.
    Better bargains if you buy junk P4 board. Again it seems
    you're building junk low end but overspending on a CPU.

    If I go to a popular website, say Newegg, and pick a popular
    manufacturer, let's use Gigabyte. Their lowest cost, full
    sized Athon 64/939 board is $85.

    Now onto Gigabyte for Intel, lowest cost LGA or S478 in a
    full sized board is $82/$82. Hmm, you're right it's $3
    cheaper.
    Hardly. Athlon64 is faster at most games.

    You mean only at specific apps. If someone wants those
    performance gains they have to spend hundreds if not
    thousands of dollars on new software. That $200 CPU isn't
    so cheap anymore. Perhaps this is where you're going wrong,
    not realizing that people and/or business don't generally
    jump on the all-new-software bandwagon just because Tom's
    Hardware et al benchmarked with it.

    So how much do we add to the cost of the CPU for that
    software? I don't recall ever hearing of anyone claiming to
    use it.
    Why am I getting the feeling you're an Intel shill?
    Of course apps with P4 optimizations in them will be faster
    on P4, particularly synthetic ones.

    This is the overall trend.P4 has been in the market longer,
    MUCH longer. Apps, particularly when benchmarks use the
    newest ones, paint a disproportionate picture. Even moreso
    with AMD being the underdog, which do you think receives
    priority when it comes to optimization development?
    Granted, that is one argument FOR buying Intel, but only if
    you pay the money for those new apps.

    Fairly even match according to charts, but remember that @
    $200, it's the P4 3.0GHz or the Athlon 64 3400+ to be
    compared... even if we ignore the other factors of heat and
    power (and higher cost to run the P4 box but that diverges
    too much from the main issue(s).
     
    kony, Jan 20, 2005
    #36
  17. Dan

    Mac Cool Guest

    Al Smith:
    How many times do you need to be corrected on this point before you stop
    posting it? No one requires you to buy a computer with Windows
    preinstalled, even Dell sells machines without Windows although they are
    a bitch to find. There is no such thing as a MS tax except in your head.
     
    Mac Cool, Jan 20, 2005
    #37
  18. Dan

    Mac Cool Guest

    CBFalconer:
    Just read the EULA before posting nonsense. OEM licenses stay with the
    machine, independantly bought copies are transferable but cannot be
    installed on more than one machine at a time. What you are referring to is
    charities distributing computers with Windows preloaded that they did not
    have licenses for. It's called stealing. Just because a charity does it,
    doesn't negate the law and it doesn't make MS the bad guy. They have a
    legal requirement to protect their rights.
     
    Mac Cool, Jan 20, 2005
    #38
  19. Dan

    CBFalconer Guest

    The voice of a lamb being led to the slaughter, or a well trained
    MS consumer. Just as you have to work to avoid sales or income
    tax, you have to work to avoid MS tax.
     
    CBFalconer, Jan 20, 2005
    #39
  20. Dan

    CBFalconer Guest

    Nonsense. These machines had originally been bought with the OS
    preinstalled, and it was still there. Joe Q. Blow is not going to
    preserve the sales slips etc. from the original purchase and pass
    them on to the Salvation Army or whoever. It's called
    rapaciousness on the part of Micro$haft.

    Why should I read the EULA? I won't let Windows XP within a mile
    of my machines. I have seen enough of it in the past to know that
    this is a good idea.
     
    CBFalconer, Jan 20, 2005
    #40
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