Need New PC recommendations/info

Discussion in 'Dell' started by Dan, Jan 17, 2005.

  1. Dan

    Mac Cool Guest

    CBFalconer:
    I am well trained. Been using MS Windows for many years and it is vastly
    superior to all alternatives. Don't blame your deficiencies on MS.
     
    Mac Cool, Jan 20, 2005
    #41
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  2. Dan

    Mac Cool Guest

    CBFalconer:
    If they don't have a license, they can't be sold with an operating
    system. It doesn't matter if a charity does it. Educate yourself, all
    companies have a legal obligation to protect their rights or they can
    lose them.
    Why indeed? Much more fun to make up junk and claim ignorance.
     
    Mac Cool, Jan 20, 2005
    #42
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  3. Dan

    Dave C. Guest

    (major snippage)
    The P4 doesn't use THAT much more power. If you purchase the right power
    supply for an Athlon64 system, you can put that same exact power supply in a
    similar P4 system and it will work fine. A power supply does not need to be
    a higher capacity to support a P4. However, if your system uses (for
    example) exactly 300W maximum, only an idiot would actually buy a power
    supply rated at (for example) 300W maximum. So you ALWAYS buy a power
    supply that is bigger than you need. That is, unless you want to replace
    the power supply along with every upgrade you do to your computer. (not
    very smart)

    If a case is properly cooled, it will be properly cooled for either
    processor. And you don't need to spend a lot of money or have a really loud
    system to have it cooled properly. YES, you can throw a bazillion really
    loud fans into any system. But any computer (Athlon64 or P4) should need no
    more than one (quiet) case fan, along with the (quiet) power supply fans(s)
    to cool it PROPERLY. If you need more cooling than that, the reason you
    need more cooling has NOTHING to do with the CPU. For example, if you have
    (4) 10,000RPM hard drives, you might need some more case fans to keep that
    system cool.

    There are cheap, QUIET HSF solutions available for both CPUs. And yes, the
    performance of the two CPUs, Athlon 64 vs. P4, is identical. I've been
    called an Intel shill before. The truth is, I prefer AMD processors, and
    USUALLY build with AMD processors. But my most recent two builds were both
    P4. In the first P4 build, I was working on a very strict budget and found
    that the system I needed to build was actually cheaper to build (and thus I
    could keep it within budget) if I used a P4 3.0 Prescott. And no, I didn't
    use a cheapie mainboard, either . . . but Athlon64 mainboards -at the time-
    were really expensive in comparison to their socket 478 counterparts. That
    P4 system I built ended up being so fast and stable, it impressed the heck
    outta me, and I was comparing it to similar AMD systems. So for my next
    build, I deliberately chose the P4. My next build, I might (probably will)
    go the Athlon64 route.

    But I get so fricking tired of seeing people post that AMD is faster and
    cheaper than Intel, period. Why is it that if I repeat the opinion of many
    well-regarded experts, I am called a shill for that? If I'm a shill, what
    does that make tomshardware, anandtech and sharky extreme, for example? Are
    they all Intel shills, also? The facts are, Intel P4 systems are just as
    easy and cheap to build, and perform as well as Athlon64 systems. Yeah, at
    any specific moment, the -total- cost of a computer system might favor AMD
    by less than it costs to fill the gas tank on my compact car. But that's
    not always true, as processor prices are constantly changing. Just a few
    months ago, prices of mid-range processors were identical, and mainboards
    for the P4 were actually cheaper, making the P4 system (overall) cheaper to
    build. Right NOW, if you want a P4 system, it will cost you a tad more than
    an Athlon64 system. So little extra that you won't even notice, next to the
    total cost of the computer. -Dave
     
    Dave C., Jan 20, 2005
    #43
  4. Dan

    S.Lewis Guest

    <nearly complete snippage, and idiotic crosspost slashed>


    "Die evil thread, die."


    Stew
     
    S.Lewis, Jan 20, 2005
    #44
  5. Dan

    kony Guest

    One story I recall regarding the charities was that they had
    received the systems with windows installed, but had not
    received the CD, license, or other misc. included items.

    If that is the case, then it is more a matter of Microsoft
    attacking the charity because they can't locate the original
    owner. Since, as Microsoft states, the operating system is
    tied to the original/OEM system, then they can't declare
    that BOTH the original owner that retained the license, AND
    the charity running the operating system licensed to that
    box, are in the wrong. One or the other would have the
    right to use the OS, and in this case it would the charity.

    Problem then is PROVING the OS is licensed for that box.
    MS could know this based upon selling the licenses to the
    OEM, and that there is a unique key within the OS
    installation, but instead they'd rather just assume "you're
    not licensed unless you prove to us you are licensed"...
    which is a large part of why i dont' like the license at
    all... it should not be "guilty until proven innocent".

    Then there's the other school of thought, that the OS is
    only licensed if they have that certificate. Once upon a
    time they mostly distributed the certificate as a real
    certificate, but now a sticker on the case most often.
    That's great for keeping track of it, but becomes
    problematic if user changes cases but overall system remains
    same. If MS argues that the case is the system, so be it,
    but then some will want to build a different system in the
    case.

    The other problem is cleaning up. Often I've received old
    boxes from rather filthy places. Heavy smokers, gravel
    quarries, homes with multiple pets (pet hair), etc. Point
    being, easiest way to clean all that up is as little
    physical contact as possible, a leaf blower, water hose,
    etc, but one now has to be careful about damaging that paper
    sticker on the case.
     
    kony, Jan 20, 2005
    #45
  6. Dan

    kony Guest

    Pretty vague. Relatively speaking, it does use more power,
    enough that it can be a factor, particularly if one isn't
    buying (overbuying) larger PSU than the A64 box would need.
    Unfortunately you're wrong. Perhaps, as i already wrote,
    you're simply comparing situation when one spends more on
    the A64 power supply than needed. Perhaps you're stuck on a
    particular brand and that limitation means you, personally,
    would buy the same power supply for either. That is not the
    same as "needs same power". The difference is not large,
    but neither is the difference in power output from a median
    unit and a higher priced one... at least within the price
    differential I mentioned, which was $40 to account for
    power, heatsink, and a fan. Certainly if you want to
    compare a $150 PSU to a $20 one then there would be more
    difference.

    Exactly why you either have to buy a larger PSU for that P4,
    OR accept a lower margin for it (closer to that "exactly
    (nnn)W" scenario you mention.

    Only if you don't know a lot about cooling. Having
    excessive airflow to handle "anything", means more wear on
    fans, dust buildup, and noise than necessary. Again, Intel
    changed case layout for BTX to address this, because their
    CPU was running hotter. It might be argued that there were
    other accomodations too, but that does not account for
    putting the CPU up in front of the intake which can even
    make the other parts run hotter.

    Reread what I wrote on this, it was something like "to have
    same ambient case temp". SURE, you certainly can use same
    number/rate/flow fans, and you won't remove as much heat,
    the P4 box WILL retain more. There is escaping this.

    It might be because you're ignoring all the factors, only
    choosing those which support your argument. When two CPUs
    have similar performance, it's generally those other factors
    that are to be considered... failing a specific use pattern
    by the user of apps that clearly benefits from one
    architecture over the other.

    With the heatsink similar issue- The P4 does produce more
    heat. Intel spec sheets AND real-world tests confirm this.
    Whether you can accept it or not, more heat requires more
    elaborate/expensive heatsink, and/or more airflow/noise.
    You can't just plop the same heatsink-fan (except it's
    mounting) on either and have same result, unless you're
    again overspending for the Athlon. I'm not suggesting one
    use crap parts for the athlon, rather that there is a
    correlation between heatsink performance and price, except
    those that just strap an obnoxiously loud fan on top, which
    only teenagers seem to like.
    Sure, when they first come out with boards they're pretty
    expensive. Intel boards were too at first. Even so, one
    can't look too far forward or backwards when it's an
    industry that changes technology and pricing so much.

    Well some people call Tom's Hardware the same, but more than
    anything I think they like to just make a spectacle, cause
    debate. Often being a shill can have to do with what one
    ignores, a testing or comparision methology that was already
    favoring one architecture over the other. Truth is, if
    Intel were selling Athlon 64 CPUs and AMD the P4, there are
    still plenty who would chose based on the company... and
    it's their money, they can do that but it's good to have ALL
    the facts too, not only benchmarks of new apps tuned for a
    P4. Again it's fine if they use those apps, otherwise the
    cost must be factored in too. Many people already have the
    software to do what they want.
    Jumping to that conclusion isn't helping your case.
    Sure, $50 here, $50 there, you're only looking at the CPU
    right now, but taken as a whole it adds up. You argue same
    cost or cheaper for Intel but now "les than it costs to fill
    th gas tank". You're making progress, but still, it IS a
    difference. Again, it has to be factored against user's
    needs, not just a website's benchmarks of (particular new
    apps).
    I do notice the heat difference. I've been tweaking systems
    for heat management and low noise for several years. As for
    performance, I'm not arguing that nobody should get a p4,
    but rather that your initial claim of "p4 ... less
    expensive" is wrong.
     
    kony, Jan 20, 2005
    #46
  7. Dan

    Al Smith Guest

    Anyway, my point was, if you already own Windows, and you buy a
    What he said. :) Sure, you can avoid paying the Microsoft tax, if
    you jump through hoops like a trained seal to do so. You don't see
    many computers sold retail without Windows. They are hard to find,
    and offer a limited choice.
     
    Al Smith, Jan 20, 2005
    #47
  8. Dan

    Al Smith Guest

    Why should I read the EULA? I won't let Windows XP within a mile
    I wish I had your determination. I took a long look at Mandrake
    but finally upgraded to Windows XP. I feel like such a Micro-slut.
    On the plus side, I stuck with my oath to never pay Microsoft
    another dollar as long as I draw breath. I haven't violated that
    oath in six years, and counting.
     
    Al Smith, Jan 20, 2005
    #48
  9. Dan

    BobR Guest

    Tom Scales wrote in message ...
    I'd love to drive the Mercedes (or anything faster (racer blood in me)),
    BUT, some of us can't even afford a used Toy' Echo.

    I was simply showing an option for those on a short budget. I built this
    P4-2.4Ghz, 512Meg, 4xAGP(32M), for approx. $500.us (should take me to 2008,
    using the 5 year rule)(I prefer Adventure games when not learning C++, so I
    don't need a screaming-fast machine.).

    To answer some other posts;
    Yeah, Linux ain't the easiest to install, but, I think us newbies have put a
    bug in the GNU ear and they are working on making a push-button install. May
    not slay the giant, but has him worried! Even 'Big Blue' is joining the
    GNU/Linux bandwagon. <G>

    [ I'll limit any further posts in this thread to the ...pc.homebuilt NG.]
     
    BobR, Jan 21, 2005
    #49
  10. Dan

    Mac Cool Guest

    Al Smith:
    You have three choices: pay for the product, nothing wrong with that; use
    an alternative, nothing wrong with that; or steal a copy of Windows and
    then run around whining about MS. Frank Herbert once wrote something
    similiar to, 'we despise those we have wronged' and I have found it
    generally to be true.
     
    Mac Cool, Jan 21, 2005
    #50
  11. Dan

    Tom Scales Guest

    So, you stole XP? If you haven't paid in six years, and XP hasn't been out
    that long.....
     
    Tom Scales, Jan 21, 2005
    #51
  12. Dan

    Mac Cool Guest

    It's like all systems, rarely are they perfect but until someone invents a
    viable alternative that solves the same problems, then the current system
    will likely continue. MS sells to a wide range of customers, requiring a
    variety of licensing schemes that are fair to BOTH the customer and MS.
     
    Mac Cool, Jan 21, 2005
    #52
  13. Dan

    Mac Cool Guest

    BobR:
    I never had any problems installing it, it's getting it to work after you
    install it.
     
    Mac Cool, Jan 21, 2005
    #53
  14. Dan

    CBFalconer Guest

    ROTFLLMAO at the very idea of MS being wronged. 'Tis a consumation
    devoutly to be wished.
     
    CBFalconer, Jan 21, 2005
    #54
  15. Dan

    jd Guest


    what the hell! what happened to the op? 54 posts of build your own and
    amd vs intel! listen dan, get your dell. it's a fine deal and you can
    probably get it for under fourteen hundred dollars from them. full
    warranty, tech support,6 months free internet, the whole she-bang.
    although that lcd may cost ya, if you wait for the right time(much of
    the time these days)dell throws one in at no extra cost. the size
    depends on the system you choose. for a machine with the above
    mentioned specs, it would be a seventeen inch :)
     
    jd, Jan 21, 2005
    #55
  16. Dan

    kony Guest

    That's a bit presumptuous?
    Plenty of people who pay for windows in one way or another
    aren't particularly happy either.
     
    kony, Jan 21, 2005
    #56
  17. Dan

    IsaacKuo Guest

    install.

    Recent Linux distributions are really easy to install (except for
    the purposefully geeky "hardcore" distributions). LiveCD distributions
    like Knoppix can even be run directly off of the CD. The only button
    you need to push to "install" is the CD drive button (and not even
    that if your optical drive is a slot loader). Windows has never been
    so easy to install!

    If nothing else, Knoppix and other liveCDs make life a LOT nicer
    for a technician working on a Windows PC when the OS gets fubar'd.
    Without even opening up the case, you can pop in a working OS and
    get at data; transfer it over the net; download drivers; whatever...

    For me, Knoppix is worth if for QTParted alone. It's a Partition
    Magic clone. I have long simply lived without a decent partitioning
    utility because I neither wanted to spend the money on Partition
    Magic nor did I want to pirate it.

    I would heartily recommend dual booting Windows/Linux for anyone
    who is currently used to Windows but who also likes to tinker with
    his computer. You literally have nothing to lose, and it's fun to
    play around with. The biggest difference in the Linux experience
    is software installation--it's such a breeze compared to Windows
    and you DON'T have to deal with nagware/crippleware pop-ups or
    restrictions. There are just so many nice little utilities in
    Windows which are nice but not spend-the-$20-shareware-fee nice.
    It takes a little while getting used to the Linux software world
    where virtually all of those nice little utilities are of the
    freeware--just-install-it-and-that's-it-it-just-works-no-strings-attached
    variety. Once you get used to it, though, it's hard to go back to
    Windows.

    Isaac Kuo
     
    IsaacKuo, Jan 21, 2005
    #57
  18. Dan

    Al Smith Guest

    You have three choices: pay for the product, nothing wrong with that; use
    Frank Herbert got the cart before the horse. You're more apt to
    wrong someone you dispise. This doesn't apply to large
    corporations, which wrong people to make greater profits.
     
    Al Smith, Jan 21, 2005
    #58
  19. Dan

    Al Smith Guest

    I wish I had your determination. I took a long look at Mandrake but
    I looked at it this way. Microsoft pissed me off so royally, I
    vowed never to give them another dime. On the other hand,
    Microsoft was forcing me to upgrade by phasing out Windows 98 and
    phasing in Windows XP. I tested out Linux and found it wasn't
    ready for the desktop. What were my choices?
     
    Al Smith, Jan 21, 2005
    #59
  20. Dan

    Mac Cool Guest

    kony:
    I was aiming my comment specifically at Al who justifies stealing because
    he was 'pissed off'. Sure, there were lots of reasons to be pissed off
    back in 95/98 days because those were defective products IMO and quite
    frankly I could care less if people bitch but it starts chapping my ass
    when people just make shit up to bitch about.
     
    Mac Cool, Jan 21, 2005
    #60
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