New computer, some questions...

Discussion in 'Asus' started by Petter Hære, Jun 17, 2004.

  1. Petter Hære

    Petter Hære Guest

    Hi everybody!

    I'm thinking of getting myself a new computer system, and I am currently
    thinking about this setup:

    AMD Athlon 64 3000+
    ASUS K8V or (SE Deluxe) mainboard
    Corsair TWINX 1024-3200LL (512MB x 2) memory

    Now, I would want a computer that is as silent as it gets, and I have some
    questions about this Cool&Quiet-thing which ASUS says it supports:

    1) Do I need to take into consideration whcich CPU-fan I should buy (does it
    need some kind of sensor)?
    2) Now, what about the Power supply? Does this need to be
    Cool&Quiet-compatible? I was thinking of maybe bying a MIST 430ADP.

    3) I'm also a bit confused about the motherboard. What is the difference
    between the regular K8V and the SE Deluxe version? ( I'm in no need of extra
    this and extra that on the mainboard, I just want a fast and reliable basis
    for my CPU, memory and expansion cards).

    4) Will the Corsair memory work with this mainboard? I've heard something
    about AMD not supporting memory modules in more than 1 slot. Am I mistaken?

    5) And finally: Any tips for building a silent computer? Not too advanced
    though, mainly by choosing the right components (CPU, power supply, chassis,
    fans/coolers, harddrive etc.)

    Any help would be appreciated immensly. I'm in a black hole here as I
    haven't kept up-to-date on the computer front since I bought my last
    computer three years ago. Thanks in advance.

    -Petter Hære
     
    Petter Hære, Jun 17, 2004
    #1
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  2. Petter Hære

    Gareth Jones Guest

    The CPU fan (and associated heatsink) will be one of the most important
    things in determining how quiet the PC will be.
    Most CPU specific fans will have a 3 pin (with sensor) connector for
    direct motherboard connection. The Asus Q-Fan feature can then be
    useful.

    If you go for something like the Thermaltake SLK900 (but a model that
    fits the A64) then you'll need a separate 80 or 92mm fan. Get a quiet
    one with the right 3 pin connector. I use these and they are really
    quiet.
    Not sure. I thought the cool and quiet thing was a motherboard feature
    to adjust the CPU voltage and speed ?? So I'd say no.
    Most 'silent' types have their own built in speed v temp regulation.

    This and that.
    Otherwise the same.
    Tips??
    Be prepared to know where to draw the line. Getting a REALLY silent
    computer is gonna be very expensive. One with 80% of the silence is
    going to be about 30% of the price.
    Knowing where this line is, is difficult ;-)

    Get a big case. Preferably 4 case fans. Preferably 12cm ones (but most
    of these only have two)

    Spend a bit of money of quiet case fans. I tend to use ys-tech ones that
    are ok, but I've also used a different type (blue construction) that I
    can't remember the make of ..... but it was quite expensive, but very,
    very quiet.

    Buy one of these 4 way drive bay fan controller things (I've got vantec
    ones - cheap and seem to do the job). Be aware that running the case and
    CPU fans will obviously cause your hardware to heat up, so having the
    controller allows you to 'tune' your computer to a reasonable level.

    Small fans are noisy. No MB northbridge fan is good. Graphics card fans
    can be bad. Either get a card with no fan, or get one that is known
    quiet, or one that supports an affordable 3rd party cooling option.
    (E.g. I've got an arctic cooling VGA heatsink thingie that I'm going to
    put on the other half's Radeon 9700 when I get the chance)

    Good luck!
    --
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    Personal email for Gareth Jones can be sent to:
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    Gareth Jones, Jun 17, 2004
    #2
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  3. What I have is similar to what you plan to do. I've recently put a
    K8V, AMD 64 3400, 1 gig DDR ram, and a couple sata harddrives
    in my Alienware case ....so, here are my thoughts (for what they
    are worth)
    From what I understand, you have to use the stock amd heatsink/fan
    to use the Cool & Quiet feature ....I use a Thermaltake Volcano 13, and
    thus I can't use the Cool & Quiet.
    I am using an Antec TruPower 550. Don't know of any requirements to
    'have to use' a certain type.
    I use Corsair TwinX-1024 3200LLPro and it is working fine. (2x 512mb)
    I have the regular K8V ....from what I understand there is no difference
    in performance. Just that the Deluxe has a WFi slot, and a couple
    extra things I dont need or use. That being said, I would have been
    willing to spend the extra 5 or 10 bucks for the deluxe ... but, I goofed
    and ordered the wrong one. (didnt bother to scroll down the web page
    before I clicked 'Add to order')
    Unfortunately, I can't give you any advice there, as mine sounds
    almost like a jet engine roaring. I put cooling above all else, so I have
    5 case fans, and a PCI slot fan .... on top of which I replaced the two
    rear exhaust fans with 'Ultra High Speed' fans to maximize airflow.
    (they turn at 5500 rpm, I beleive) ....but, for me it was neccessary
    as I had 4 internal harddrives (2 sata, 2 IDE) ...and 2 internal
    DVD-RW's. On top of which, I have a TV tuner card in here, and
    using an ATI Radeon X800 Pro Video card. Temp wise, I am not doing
    too bad ... idle temp is 37/38 Cel ... and under load, max I have hit is
    41/42 Cel. (Defragging seems to be the most intense operation on this
    system)....Playing UT2004 comes in 2nd, which warms me up
    to 40/41 cel.
     
    Mark Timerding, Jun 17, 2004
    #3
  4. Petter Hære

    Paul Guest

    Cool and quiet adjusts two parameters called FID and VID. VID is
    something that is discussed quite frequently in this group. It is
    a five bit code, sent from the processor to the Vcore voltage
    regulator. When a processor is made at the factory, they select
    a particular five bit code for what they think is the best voltage
    for the processor.

    In a CnQ processor, VID is variable. When the OS is doing a lot of
    work, and the task manager measures 100% use, CnQ will adjust the
    voltage in the upward direction, as just like in overclocking,
    you need a bit more voltage to go faster. When the computer is idle,
    the voltage will be turned back down again. Since the more voltage
    used, the hotter the processor gets, this helps to control heat.

    The second factor is FID, otherwise known as the clock multiplier.
    On a locked processor, like the current AthlonXP, the FID is a
    fixed value. On a mobile AthlonXP-M, the FID is programmable.
    FSB_clock*FID = Core_frequency. Just like with VID, when the
    processor is 100% busy, the FID can be increased to make the
    processor go faster. The FID can be decreased again, when the
    processor is idle. Since FID and VID are being changed at
    roughly the same time, they can both be adjusted for optimum
    conditions at any processor utilization level.

    Now, so far, notice there has been no discussion about the
    heatsink and fan. Whether CnQ is enabled or not, at 100% use,
    the processor will still be throwing off the same amount of
    heat. It is just when the processor is idle, that the big
    inprovement in coolness happens. So, you still need as good
    a heatsink and fan, as you would have needed without CnQ.

    Asus has another feature called Q-Fan. The fan control circuit
    can adjust the voltage sent to the fan, making it run faster or
    slower. When Q-Fan is enabled, the fan control feature has a
    fixed threshold, where the fan speeds up at 50 degrees C. Some
    people have noted, that with CnQ enabled, Q-fan runs the fans so
    slow, that in fact they can stop. This doesn't hurt anything,
    as when the CPU hits 50C, the Q-Fan will turn on the juice again.
    If you don't want your processor to be hovering around 50C all
    the time, disable Q-Fan, and the fan will operate at full speed.
    You can purchase a separate fan controller, like a FanMate or a
    Nexus controller, and set the voltage to the fan at between 7
    and 12V. Run a loading program like Prime95 or CPUBurn, to see
    how hot the processor gets. Adjust the fan speed so the processor
    is adequately cooled at 100% load. Or, you could even get a
    fan controller with its own thermistor, for a more gradual
    adjustment of fan speed versus temperature. Personally, I like
    to buy an oversize heatsink, combined with a low RPM fan, and
    just run it at 100% fan speed, for a reasonable cooling solution
    without the need for Q-Fan.

    Page 8 of this doc, says the processor has a thermal design power
    of 89W. The implication is a good HSF is still needed, like
    say a Zalman 7000a, with thermal resistance of around 0.25C/W.
    At 89W, the difference between the CPU and the case air, will
    be 89*0.25 or roughly 22C. That is how much the CPU will heat
    up, over and above the case temp. Most of the time, it won't
    get anywhere near that large a heating.

    http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_papers_and_tech_docs/30430.pdf

    As for your motherboard selection, be aware that not all board
    designs have AGP/PCI lock, and this limits the extent of
    overclocking opportunities. For example, without a lock, a 33MHz
    PCI bus can have problems at 37.5MHz. That is a 14% overclock.
    If your normal FSB clock was 200MHz, then you could only increase
    it to 228MHz, before there might be some PCI problems.

    The upcoming Nforce chipset called "250GB" with builtin gigabit
    lan and hardware firewall in the chipset, is supposed to have
    a working AGP/PCI lock, so an overclocker can harvest more
    speed from a board using that chipset, than the ones Asus
    makes right now. Look for reviews of K8N-E. No idea when it will
    actually be released.

    HTH,
    Paul
     
    Paul, Jun 17, 2004
    #4
  5. Petter Hære

    Tim Guest

    1. if you have to have case fans, get a case that supports 12cm ones and get
    ultra quiet fans.
    2. To build a quiet PC build it using quiet components. Trying to make it
    quiet after the fact is near impossible. Eliminate as many fans as you can.

    If you can get you CPU cool enough without cnq and with a quieter HSF then
    thats the way to go, but cnq appears to work quite well from what little I
    have heard. The Athlon 64's produce less heat I believe so that is an
    excellent starting point.

    best of lucuk & please post back with your progress as you go...

    - Tim
     
    Tim, Jun 18, 2004
    #5
  6. Petter Hære

    Gareth Jones Guest

    1. Is fine.
    2. is ambiguous. Either get components that use no fans, or actually
    stick MORE, BIGGER, SLOWER and hence quieter fans in. Don't think
    'eliminate as many fans' literally unless its qualified by 'making sure
    the heat is not produced, or is removed in some other way'
    But I'd agree with point 2 then.
    However you are now getting into the realms of the much more expensive
    options!

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    Personal email for Gareth Jones can be sent to:
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    Gareth Jones, Jun 18, 2004
    #6
  7. Petter Hære

    Tim Guest

    Gareth,

    <slight rant>
    Personally I would have preferred it if Intel had invested the last year or
    two in addressing the power consumption of its chips in combination with
    some performance improvement than producing the heat generators that they
    have. I am hugely dissapointed in this. 2 Years and what could they be doing
    I thought? Faster? Nope we haven't seen 100% improvement of the 2.x GHz
    chips of two years ago. Heat dissipation? Halving of power for same grunt -
    lets hope, but NO. Alas AMD did produce some cooler chips & hey they're 64
    bit & they are kool! (actually I prefer Intel, but they lost this one
    badly). And all during this we read repeated articles about CPU's &
    performance & bla bla bla & the article authors don't know enough to know
    that Moore's law is nothing more than a "sort of currently sort of valid
    observation" * not a real law as it won't always hold true & that Heat comes
    into things too.

    <rant meanders way off course>
    * IE if Moore's law is a law then surely it applied in 1715. What was the
    make of microprocessor then? Hmmmm let me see. Abacus? Fingers? Napier's
    bones? Now if a person could do 1 addition per minute in 1715 (I think thats
    about when Baron John Napier came up with his idea of a computer made from
    bones) then (1/60) * 2 ** ((2004 - 1715) / 2) ==> approx computing power we
    should have today. Where 1/60 = number of instructions per second. ~= 1/60 *
    2 ** 144 = a rather huge number. But I am sure it would only have taken a
    couple of seconds to do a single Add by someone capable.

    BTW: There is a counting system in Papua New Guinea that goes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
    Many. Another that goes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, Many. Then the bright
    sparks came up with 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16,
    17, 18, 19 Many (why only 19? Uses the other finger for counting).

    Such a succession of issues. Shyte memory compatibility / bios's / 865 / 875
    chipset issues. Heat problems. Noise problems of the most irritation type
    (IE fans) and all we get from Intel is leg warmers.

    Yip so I was a little ambiguous. You can't ignore the heat issue. Using big
    slowish quiet fans in the case is almost essential unless you can afford the
    swish Zalman cases, or have some spare filled concrete blocks.

    Hold on... I am being ambiguous again :)

    - Tim
     
    Tim, Jun 18, 2004
    #7
  8. Petter Hære

    Gareth Jones Guest

    I wasn't really getting at you. Its just that some people jump on what
    is written without taking things in context.
    I agree with what you say, its just that 'get rid of as many fans as
    possible' in the wrong (misinterpreting) hands is a recipe for disaster
    ;-)

    I'm afraid in my job I have to do stuff like write documents and exam
    papers and I get a little paranoid about the need to be explicit and not
    be put in a situation where someone can read things the wrong way
    (because human nature and intelligence being what it is..... some dumb
    f***k will ;-)

    Sorry.

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    Personal email for Gareth Jones can be sent to:
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    Gareth Jones, Jun 18, 2004
    #8
  9. Petter Hære

    Jazz699 Guest

    just some thought on quiet components:

    (i have an aging amd athlon xp 2200 (1789ghz) running at 2241
    (166x13.5)... so i need lots of air to keep it cool... )

    try #1

    initially i went with many 80mm fans.. 2 in back, 1 up top, 1 in side,
    and 1 in front, with aeroflow hsf (spins at around 6000rpm)... this
    setup proved to be very loud... but my idle temps hovered around 5-7 C
    above ambient and full load only went up 7-9 degrees C above idle(very
    nice for oc'd system)

    try#2

    purchased thermaltake volcano 11 which comes with an adjustable fan
    which spins from 1000-5000 rpm... installed aeroflow fan on side of
    case directly over thermaltake hsf... this setup cooled the system by
    about 3-5 degrees C but turned out to be louder than a jet engine...

    try#3 -in progress

    got new plexigalss pane, cut 120mm hole to fit a 120mm fan (spins at 2
    settings 1200 or 1700 rpm)... installed fan to new pane... turned
    thermaltake hsf down to 1600 rpm... now i have about the same temp as
    with try#2 but a significantly quieter pc

    next step is to replace 2 80mm fans in psu with 2 other slower ones,
    as well as replace 2 80mm fans in the back with either 1 90mm fan or 2
    slower 80mm fans...

    my 2 hdd's also make much noise, thus they will be reaplaced soon...

    in the end i hope to have a quiet pc... that does not sacrifice
    performance :)

    my $.02
     
    Jazz699, Jun 22, 2004
    #9
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