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New PC Intel Or Amd

Discussion in 'AMD Thunderbird' started by JustMe, Sep 21, 2003.

  1. JustMe

    JustMe Guest

    Why are there sata hd then if they aren't usefull? how many mbps does
    an 80gb with 8M cache?
     
    JustMe, Sep 25, 2003
    #21
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  2. JustMe

    Ben Pope Guest

    There are advantages... cabling is MUCH nicer, hot-plugging when the OSs
    support it properly and a few other things that can improve performance a
    little.

    It's a replacement for parallel interface - many fast interfaces are serial
    now - by using a differential pair noise immunity is much reduced and speeds
    can soar.

    An 80Gb drive with an 8Meg cache can burst as fast as the interface, but not
    for very long... at 100Megs/s thats 80ms, IF you want everything in the
    cache, which is unlikely. Sustained transfer speeds peak at maybe 40Megs/s.
    The WD Raptor, which is the fastest ATA drive around (and it's natively a
    parallel ATA drive with a SATA bridge onboard) can sustain writing at
    45Megs/s in my experience. I think reading is up to nearly 60Megs/s.

    If you want the fastest drive out there without going SCSI, go SATA and get
    the WD Raptor, otherwise get whatever, unless you're planning on it lasting
    a LONG time. Eventually they will get rid of parallel ATA and new
    motherboards won't come with it. I'd expect this to happen maybe 2-3 years
    after they stop selling parallel ATA drives, unless there is some other
    driving force behind it - such as a big move to BTX form factor.

    Ben
     
    Ben Pope, Sep 25, 2003
    #22
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  3. JustMe

    JustMe Guest

    don't think i'll be doing al lot of hot plugging..
    and an 80Gb with 2Mb cache? about the same or a lot slower?
    I once bought an SCSI drive thinking it would last a very long time..
    it was an fast 2, and by the time i wanted a new system fast 2 was
    gone.. since then i don't plan for a long time anymore.. Are there any
    plans already for an new version off sata?
    in other words just buy an ide 80gb..

    Is there any advantage on the deluxe board then? Is the IEEE any good
    or should i just buy an card for it?

    klaas
     
    JustMe, Sep 25, 2003
    #23
  4. JustMe

    Ben Pope Guest

    What people don;t seem to understand is that the interface has little
    bearing on the performance of a drive. Usually the interface is much faster
    than the drive and therefore does not hold it back. It is the drive
    mechanism that determines the raw speed of the drive. You can then have
    efficient algorithms that reduce the raw speed less than others.

    A cache is useful for storing the bits of data that are expected to be asked
    for next - the larger the cache, the more likely you have the data in the
    cache. So on average, a drive with an 8Meg cache will perform better then
    the same drive with a 2Meg cache. The peak sustained transfer rate is
    unaffected by cache.
    Yes. But it will be backwards compatible with the current version so any
    drive you buy today will work on the new version. Much like USB and USB2.

    http://www.serialata.org/about/index.shtml
    If thats what you want, yeah. 2-3 years down the line, you may as well
    throw away your old drives as their capacity is almost insignificant
    compared to what is available now, and usually much slower too. And then
    there's the reliability factor... since it is one of the few mechanical
    components in the computer it's life is much shorter than other components.
    I personally went for the Deluxe as it has everything on board - I wanted a
    WD Raptor so the SATA was useful. I liked the idea of the better onboard
    sound. I liked the idea of 2 network ports. I thought the price difference
    for the extra bits was an absolute bargain. Even if I had no immediate
    requirement for them, I thought it was worth going for it.

    I have not used the FireWire port, but if it works, it works. I suspect
    it's ok in terms of speed and cpu overhead because it's built into the
    chipset.

    Ben
     
    Ben Pope, Sep 25, 2003
    #24
  5. JustMe

    Bill Guest

    64~65 megs sustained transfer here using 2 Raptors running RAID-0.

    Bill
     
    Bill, Sep 25, 2003
    #25
  6. JustMe

    Ben Pope Guest

    I've just read that 55Megs/s is the read speed for a single drive. So I
    wasn't far out :)

    Ben
     
    Ben Pope, Sep 25, 2003
    #26
  7. JustMe

    JustMe Guest

    Ever needed that 55M/s?

    Looks like the choice for SATA disks around here is a bit limited.
    Seagate and Maxtor, WD only in 36Gb format and all 7200rpm models.
    Think i'll through an IDE 80Gb 8Mb cache in the system. A deluxe mobo
    is only 30 euro's more expensive. The extra Lan is useful for creating
    an local network and let this pc act as an server.. Or are there any
    reasons for putting in a special router and not use an AMD as an
    server?

    klaas
     
    JustMe, Sep 25, 2003
    #27
  8. JustMe

    Ben Pope Guest

    Not really. But I like it :p

    The hard drive is the only thing you notice that you're waiting around for
    these days, the quicker the better.
    WD do larger SATA drives than 36Gigs, their Raptors are 36Gigs and 10000rpm.
    They're bringing out some new Raptors, FDM bearings, 4.2ms seek rather then
    5.2 (I think) and 36 and 72 Gig models.
    Sounds like a plan. The 8Meg cache models are quite nippy.
    Yeah, you can switch the computer off, and it doesn't take any resources,
    and if you use Windows, you don't have to rely on the rather unreliable and
    awkward ICS.

    Ben
     
    Ben Pope, Sep 25, 2003
    #28
  9. JustMe

    JustMe Guest

    Thats true, perhaps with this argument i can persuide my girlfriend
    to spend more money :) but she is more into internetting, so 55 Meg/s
    on an 512kb/s (and most off the times a lot less) connection seems a
    bit overdone :)

    hmm thats true
    all windows is awkward, but Linux is a bit to "awkward" for my girl..
    putting in an router would be an idea to solve that.. does Linux run
    smooth on an AMD? hmm but then i don't reallly need the deluxe.. sound
    is on the a7N8X and A7N8X-X the same, only IEEE remains then..

    So my system should be:
    Mobo: A7N8X-X or A7N8X
    Proc: 2500+
    Mem: 512Mb Corsair (1 stick)
    Hd: 80Gb/8Mb cache
    Video: ATI 9600 Pro
    and some stuf as an DVD player/rewriter and so on..

    Klaas
     
    JustMe, Sep 25, 2003
    #29
  10. JustMe

    Ben Pope Guest

    Well, it's more about general feel than downloading. I'm on dialup at the
    moment :-( But my programs still load fast, files copy fast and it's
    generally just nice to use. When the time comes (about 10gigs away :) I'll
    get myself a large disk, probably a WD with 8meg cache approaching 200gigs
    for everything else.
    Fair comment, I struggle with it a bit and I'm supposed to be able to figure
    out these things :)
    It makes life easy - takes away any thought and configuration.
    You really want to get kernel 2.6 for the nForce2 platform, otherwise no
    problems... test4/5 is stable enough.
    You sure the sound is the same?
    If you do go Linux, the RV350 is only just being supported natively in
    XFree86, you'll want the latest version of X really (4.4), and the ATI
    closed source drivers aren't great for 3D.

    Ben
     
    Ben Pope, Sep 25, 2003
    #30
  11. JustMe

    JustMe Guest

    thats true and Microsoft and others keep on increasing the size off
    programs so how faster how better..
    I'm lazy didn't try Linux yet, used to work on the big HP-UX servers
    and didn't want to do the same at home.. but perhaps one off these
    days i'll put it on or on my old pentium

    On the asus site all these boards have on board sound based on
    realtek® ALC650 6CH w/built in HP amplifier

    The deluxe only has an Integrated APU(Audio Processor Unit)
    SoundStorm?/ Dolby® Digital (AC-3) Encoder and 1 x S/PDIF out + 1 x
    Surround L/R audio jack + 1 x CNTR/LFE audio jack

    so oke its not totally the same, but i don't think i'll be using an
    surrond system on my pc.
    How about the Geforce FX5600? same or beter supported?

    Klaas
     
    JustMe, Sep 25, 2003
    #31
  12. JustMe

    Ben Pope Guest

    Thats also the beauty of it... the newer distros still work on old hardware
    without bogging it down.
    Thats used for external interfacing on the Deluxe, all sound processing is
    in the APU.
    Yep... thats where the quality is. Soundstorm is good.
    Even still, SoundStorm is of better quality than the Realtek... depends how
    good your hearing is I suppose :) I probably couldn't tell the difference.
    I know that the CPU overhead is MUCH reduced on the nVidia APU than with say
    the Realtek.
    From what I understand, the nVidia graphics drivers are better in Linux, but
    I'm happy with my ATI. It's not like I play games in Linux or anything and
    I think the benefits of the ATI hardware over nVidia is great enough to
    suffer the 3D performance in Linux for superior performance in Windows
    (where I use it). ATI 2D is fine in Linux.

    Ben
     
    Ben Pope, Sep 25, 2003
    #32
  13. JustMe

    JustMe Guest

    yeah, finaly no more blue screens on that old system..
    on the old speakers i won't hear it either.. i think..
    ok thats a reason to spend the 30 euro's extra and get some extra
    stuff too
    pehaps i put both Linux as XP on the new system.. playing a game will
    not be a problem then..

    klaas
     
    JustMe, Sep 25, 2003
    #33
  14. JustMe

    Ben Pope Guest

    According to Toms Hardware the Realtek can reduce FPS by as much as 15%, the
    nForce APU 4%.

    http://www.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/sound_for_games-03.html
    Thats what I've got... Win2K SP4 and Gentoo Linux.

    Ben
     
    Ben Pope, Sep 25, 2003
    #34
  15. JustMe

    Stacey Guest

    Sata has nothing to do with it. Yes it the next interface but right now
    there is no advantage in paying extra for it.

    I get 46Mbs with a WD ata100 80meg drive that's about a year old.
     
    Stacey, Sep 28, 2003
    #35
  16. JustMe

    Stacey Guest

    JustMe wrote:


    I'd buy a PCI card..
     
    Stacey, Sep 28, 2003
    #36
  17. JustMe

    Ben Pope Guest


    At a cost probably exceeding the extra for the Deluxe.

    Ben
     
    Ben Pope, Sep 28, 2003
    #37
  18. JustMe

    Stacey Guest

    And if there is a software/hardware issue (which some on board firewire
    chips have had) you are stuck with it. BTW a firewire card is like $15.
     
    Stacey, Sep 28, 2003
    #38
  19. JustMe

    JustMe Guest

    Any known issues on the Asus boards for that?
    o yeah i read somewhere that the next pricereduction on processors
    should take place somewhere in october. Is that true or just an rumor?

    klaas
     
    JustMe, Sep 30, 2003
    #39
  20. JustMe

    Ben Pope Guest

    You snipped the bits where I said interface had nothing to do with it.

    Quite simply the Raptor is the fastest ATA drive out there. It's SATA.

    You can't get the Raptor and not go SATA at the moment.

    Ben
     
    Ben Pope, Oct 2, 2003
    #40
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