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NV40 a 16-pipe MONSTER - Too late for ATI to respond

Discussion in 'ATI' started by NV55, Feb 26, 2004.

  1. NV55

    NV55 Guest

    According to an article and several posts I read this morning, the
    NV40 is a 16 pipeline design with 205~210 million transistors--up from
    the 8 pipeline configuration / 175 million transistors of eariler
    reports.

    but *I* don't believe this info yet.

    NV40 as a 16-pipe architecture will *probably* end up as a 8x2. much
    like NV30 was thought of, at first, as an 8-pipe architecture. then
    later it was discovered NV30 is a 4x2 (that's 4 pipes, 2 texture
    units per pipe).


    now, here's the NV40 article in question:

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Nvidia NV40 specifications confirmed

    Too late for ATI to respond


    By Paul Dutton: Thursday 26 February 2004, 14:52

    NVIDIA REALLY needed to pull the cat out of the bag in the next round
    of its increasingly epic battle with ATI Technologies and from where
    we're sitting we'd be more than surprised if the next round isn't,
    now, a foregone conclusion.
    US sources close to Nvidia have confirmed that their next generation
    GPU will feature a full sixteen pipelines – not as previously
    speculated an 8x2 arrangement - and this is reflected in the increased
    transistor count of circa 205-210 million, up from a previously
    speculated 175 million.

    In very recent times ATI have been extremely confident in saying that
    their R420 - set to launch not long after, Nvidia show their hand –
    would, immaterial of architecture, thoroughly outgun the NV40.

    Indeed today, Richard Huddy - ATI's European Developer Relations
    Manager maintained that their expectation was for ATi's R420 to be,
    faster, on balance, across a suite of 10 common games than Nvidia
    NV40.

    However we think that ATI's earlier confidence was based on internal
    intelligence that Nvidia's NV40 feature set would be limited to an
    architecture built on 175 million transistors and that Nvidia would
    deliver, as anticipated, on the first day of CeBIT in March.

    Nvidia's launch date for NV40 seems to have shifted backwards, but
    even a month or so is not going to give ATi enough time for a hardware
    response.

    Knowing what we know now about NV40 having a full sixteen pipelines,
    we sensed that despite some fighting talk, and indeed some intelligent
    and rationalised arguments, ATi are now hoping, at best for a close
    fight…

    NV40 0wnage of ATi R420 coming soon to a store near you?

    We sure think so… µ
     
    NV55, Feb 26, 2004
    #1
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  2. NV55

    GTX_SlotCar Guest

    Nvidia's launch date for NV40 seems to have shifted backwards, but
    In the past, they've pushed backwards and backwards until the missed the
    product cycle. Let's see how they do this time. Looks like good news for
    nVidia owners, though. It means another release of new Det. drivers that are
    very fast (and unstable) to bring up the new card's scores. I wonder how
    they'll work in my kids' Ti4400.

    Gary
     
    GTX_SlotCar, Feb 26, 2004
    #2
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  3. NV55

    John Lewis Guest

    Either 175 million or 200 miliion transistors on even a
    90nm process will present a huge cooling challenge.
    Ask Intel and Prescott (only ~ 120 million transistors ).

    It will be very interesting to see how this will all pan out.
    nVidia is working actively on using IBM's latest
    processes (and IBM is working with AMD also on
    a new 65nm process) so it will be very interesting
    to see what emerges in the GPU world before the end
    of 2004. Heat management is becoming a very serious
    issue for both CPUs and GPUs, particularly for the
    GPUs which are now rapidly outpacing CPUs in terms
    of both transistor count and active clock-edges.

    John Lewis
     
    John Lewis, Feb 27, 2004
    #3
  4. Intel's thermal issues stem from the actual design of Prescott based P4's.
    90 nm technologies are not the issue, just ask IBM.
    I don't expect GPU's to carry high Mhz ratings since they exploit
    parallelism so well. It probably easier to double the number of pipelines
    in the NV40 than it would be to double the clock speed. ATI and nVidia
    are not affraid to launch a part with a lower Mhz rating than the previous
    generation as long as the chips are more effecient. PCI Express hopefull
    will address some of the heat and power issues.
     
    kevin getting, Feb 27, 2004
    #4
  5. NV55

    Derek Baker Guest

    --
    Derek
    The NV40 is still on 130nm. Imagine cooling that! Still they had plentry of
    experience - mostly bad - cooling the NV30. :)
     
    Derek Baker, Feb 27, 2004
    #5
  6. NV55

    papasurf Guest

    As long as it doesn't have six fans, heat up the entire house, sound like a
    chain saw and take up four PCI slots;)
     
    papasurf, Feb 27, 2004
    #6
  7. NV55

    Dark Avenger Guest

    *snip snip snip*
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Inquirer? Mm, sorry Fox News told me that new Ati GPU was a 64
    Pixel Pipeline with 6 TMU's per pipe, so nvidia is so slow in
    comparison!

    ... the above just means that the source is pretty worthless and that
    Fox News might even have more value!
     
    Dark Avenger, Feb 27, 2004
    #7
  8. NV55

    Courseyauto Guest

    --
    Derek
    The NV40 is still on 130nm. Imagine cooling that! Still they had plentry of
    experience - mostly bad - cooling the NV30. :)

    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    ATIknows all about bad experiencs,their drivers prove that...............
     
    Courseyauto, Feb 27, 2004
    #8
  9. NV55

    Courseyauto Guest

    As long as it doesn't have six fans, heat up the entire house, sound like a
    chain saw and take up four PCI slots;)
    You mean like the 5900..........................
     
    Courseyauto, Feb 27, 2004
    #9
  10. NV55

    Courseyauto Guest

    The Inquirer? Mm, sorry Fox News told me that new Ati GPU was a 64
    Pixel Pipeline with 6 TMU's per pipe, so nvidia is so slow in
    comparison!

    ... the above just means that the source is pretty worthless and that
    Fox News might even have more value!

    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


    Like most of the information in the newsgroups......................
     
    Courseyauto, Feb 27, 2004
    #10
  11. NV55

    Dark Avenger Guest

    Yup, it's just waiting untill the first official benchmarks show up,
    okay benchmarks can be cheated and thus should not be taken 100%
    literal true, yet... they are a nice indication!
     
    Dark Avenger, Feb 27, 2004
    #11
  12. NV55

    Egil Solberg Guest

    I cannot see why that should have any influence.
     
    Egil Solberg, Feb 27, 2004
    #12
  13. NV55

    joe smith Guest

    I cannot see why that should have any influence.

    Maybe it will consume 0.1 watts less, who knows, if it takes less
    transistors to implement the PCI E interface than the AGP one. :)
     
    joe smith, Feb 28, 2004
    #13
  14. NV55

    John Lewis Guest

    You are missing some facts. Intel's 90nm process has leakage
    current problems that they are trying to remedy, which is why
    the present Prescott performance is so unsatisfactory. Nothing to do
    with the chip DESIGN. Intel may carry out some design tweaks
    to get around process problems, but there is nothing in the chip
    architecture that has caused the thermal problems. It was expected
    that the power-increase due to the larger caches and pipelines
    would be more than offset by the process shrink. It has not worked
    out that way.... so far.

    By the way, what high-volume publicly-available parts are IBM making
    today on their 90nm process ?
    Elementary my dear Watson. doubling the pipelines will double the
    power for that part of the architecture..........you will get a heat
    problem one way or the other, if you want to boost the graphics
    computational power by a factor of 2. Lowering the clock rate
    will just lower that factor. Nothing new here. DSPs use massive
    parallel-processing. Whether you process in parallel or serial, it
    takes a given number of clock-edges within the chip per second
    to get the job done and the total number of clock-edges executing per
    second everywhere within the chip is roughly proportional to the power
    consumed.. For a given functionality, the only white horse to come in
    and save on power will be a process shrink, as long as the design
    stays in silicon or Si-Ge; lower capacitance and smaller voltage
    swings are the key power-saving ingredients.
    More efficient ! What do you mean ?
    PCI Express has nothing to do with the fundamental problem.
    It may save some I/O power, but that is a trivial portion of
    the total power consumed by a GPU.

    John Lewis
     
    John Lewis, Feb 28, 2004
    #14
  15. NV55

    John Lewis Guest


    Well, we all know that......... but however it pans out, the next
    generation GPUs will have to come up with clever approaches
    to heat problems.

    The nub of the problem:-

    The silicon-design tools are getting so good that very
    large designs can be accomplished in very short time spaces.
    and is far outstripping the ability to shrink the processes within
    that time-scale. In fact process-shrinks are coming
    slower and slower with exponentially increasing expenses
    for each iteration. Thus the silicon area will get larger, at
    least in the near-term and the thermal-solution vendors
    will make a lot of money.

    John Lewis
     
    John Lewis, Feb 28, 2004
    #15
  16. NV55

    Darthy Guest

    Hey... howabout they build in the sound of the fans eating up Dawn...
    like as if she fell in a wood chiper... but not as fast... :)

    The new Nvidia GFX6-GT 6800Ultra -"Its a SCREAM just turning her on!"
     
    Darthy, Feb 28, 2004
    #16
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