Discussion in 'Apple' started by Charlie, Sep 16, 2003.

  1. Charlie

    Charlie Guest


    OSX.2.6 sets os9 deadly privileges on every harddisk and every
    harddiskvolume ever connected to an osx 10.2.6 system that cannot be

    What happens is the harddisk sectors like
    - the driver descriptor index,
    - the partition index,
    - the volume header block, and
    - the alternative header block,
    - the catalog B-tree
    are all set to lock !

    So they can not be overwritten or altered by anything else then the osx
    admin system. So even when you take out the harddrive format it under
    DOS, form it into an NTFS volume will not take these permissions away
    !!! and they are really nasty to destinguish.

    The result however is that when the system is also being used under os-9
    this system will eventually fail completely within a timespan of weeks
    or months. Depending of the intensity of the use. You will see
    disapearing disks, you mightlose valuable data and probeably to avoid
    further problems you will stop using OS9 (Classic).

    Steve Jobs if you're out there this is a brilliant plan to lose all the
    os9 users. If it's not your fault get it together and make shure this
    shit never
    happens again because it is absolutely Apple unworthy !!!

    However i found a painfull elaborate way of desinfecting your systems.

    no1. make shure you
    - Backup all the data you can.
    - 2 harddrives in your computer.
    - 1st harddrive (Master) 2nd drive (Slave) [NO Cable Select Setting]
    - Diskwarrior 2.1 under os9.x
    - Norton 5 or 6 on your os9 disk. (Do not use to make changes!!! - it's
    just a probe)
    - A booteable os9.x cd-rom systemdisk
    - A lot of time - 3 hours minimum.
    - Disks are not bigger then 120Gb!!!

    - Startup under os9.x or if nothing starts from the booteable system
    - If you see the osx volume then erase/format the volume Erase the disk
    if you can. You also can use the "Drive Setup" Utility.
    (If your disk is already in big trouble and you cannot see your disk try
    shutting down the machine for several hours, change the dipswitches from

    'cable setting' to 'master' and 'slave' until the drives can be mounted
    and seen on the desktop) or seen under the 'Drive Setup' Utility from
    Utility's folder

    By formatting the os-x 10.2.6 volume you enable that the permissions set
    on your harddrives can be undone.

    To get rid of all the unwanted osx permissions you must restart with
    extensions off (press Shift at startup).
    Now you have to proces volume by volume and harddrive by harddrive with
    Diskwarrior 2.1 (Diskwarrior 3.1 will not work since it works under osx
    10.2.6)This utility will not proces the startupdisk and the disk it has
    started from. This is why you need 2 diskdrives.

    At the end you can check the result with Norton 6 or Norton 5. BUT
    If Norton finds serious problems make shure not to correct them with
    Norton !!! Because Norton is not able to undo the permissions set by osx

    10.2.6 and will result in total diskloss. In fact it is adviseable to
    reformat all drives because otherwise it will be hard to distinguish
    real problems from the problems caused by the permissions from osx. This
    all means that you are about to copy a lot of data from one to another
    drive. The permisions will not be transfered by copying data under os9.

    When you need to work with osx there are two alternatives:
    - Your machine has to work with osx 10.2.6. only. You have to abandon
    the os9 boot and be verry carefull what external drives come in contact
    with this system. OR
    - You have to work with version 10.2.2 This one will only corrupt the
    permissions on the volume it is put on. Other volumes will stay intact.
    They still can be treated with Disc Warrior and Norton 5 or 6.

    It is a shame that software like Final Cut 4 need OSx 10.2.6 to work and
    will not colaborate succesfull with os9 applications.

    However there is no remedy for Diskdrives bigger then 120Gb !!!
    This is a real problem for owners of big Lacie etc Firewire disks
    because all these drives are corrupted by one contact with a os-x 10.2.6
    Anyone who has the method to resolve these (permissions) problem is
    welcome to let us know.

    To be able to make this article these facts have been encountered on
    more then 8 different machines. The procedure to get rid of the problem
    repeated on every machine with the same succes. Most machines are in the
    range of G4-400 - G4-1250DP.
    The drives where 40Gb- 120Gb IBM's, 80-200Gb WD Caviar's and 1 120Gb
    The utility that Apple introduced to prevent disappearing Harddisks
    under osx "Hard Drive Update 1" did not have any effect on any of these
    The OSX 10.2.6 install was done by several 10.2.x installers with
    upgrades to 10.2.6 via the web.
    and a brandnew OSX 10.2.6 dvd standalone installer.
    All with the same devious results.
    Charlie, Sep 16, 2003
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  2. Charlie

    clvrmnky Guest

    "deadly privileges"?

    For some reason this phrase strikes me as funny. It's a bit Star Trek,
    as in:

    'escalate privileges to "Deadly", Mr. Spock'

    'Aye, Captain. Privileges escalated to "Deadly"'

    clvrmnky, Sep 16, 2003
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  3. Charlie

    Rodger Guest

    Should I do this even though none of my systems are infected?
    Rodger, Sep 16, 2003
  4. Charlie

    Ian Gregory Guest

    Did anyone actually believe any of that? Deadly privileges?!!

    Ian Gregory
    Systems and Applications Manager
    Learning and Information Services
    University of Hertfordshire
    Ian Gregory, Sep 16, 2003
  5. Set phasers to "Enough"
    Michelle Steiner, Sep 16, 2003
  6. Charlie

    Charlie Guest

    You've been warned !!!
    Charlie, Sep 16, 2003
  7. Charlie

    Charlie Guest

    Haha !!! ok thanks!!! sometimes i sit to long and become to much one of them
    .... Hahaha

    Kay / Charlie / whatever ..
    Design & Authoring
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    Charlie, Sep 17, 2003
  8. Charlie

    Guest Guest

    recent macs can handle drives larger than 120gb and one can add an
    lba-48 compliant ata card to older macs. or, just get a firewire bridge
    that supports lba-48.
    norton 5? thats very old. no wonder you have problems.
    but they don't handle osx properly. your corruption is likely due to
    norton, not osx. norton 5 is *old*.
    i regularly shuttle files between osx and os9 machines on a firewire
    drive several times a day. i've been doing this for months. no
    corruption whatsoever.

    now, osx does have some disk issues of its own, but what you are
    describing is not one of them.
    'drop out' ?
    i just hate when proces spunch up. really ruins the day.
    and i can show you it doesn't happen.
    this part i agree. but not for your reasoning.
    Guest, Sep 17, 2003
  9. (much rambling and BS snipped)

    Yes, NU 5 & 6 are good OS9 utilities. The latest version of Norton is 8
    and is designed with OSX in mind. You need to do some research. Maybe
    you need to upgrade and stop bitching about thing you know nothing
    Winner of the prestigious "Fijords" award;
    Fijords and Continents Dept
    Magrethea Planetary Industries
    Slartibartfast, Sep 17, 2003
  10. Charlie

    M. Guest

    While this thread sure will stay controversial, I have the impression that
    it was very well-meant, and I assume there is personal experience (and disk
    damage) behind it.

    Thinking about it, I got an idea what it could be - I really don't know if
    it could be true, so I ask it here and would love to get your advice and
    judgement about the idea.

    About 2 weeks ago, the German c't magazine issued a warning about using
    Norton, unfortunately there is no English version available, but here is the

    In a nutshell, the article says that all versions of Norton can destroy
    harddisks resulting in a complete loss of data. c't magazine is
    platform-independent and has a very high reputation - in the article they
    say that they were able to re-produce the problem on several of their own

    When I read this, I was wondering why it took so long until this was
    discovered - the bug seems to be in all older versions of Norton, and if it
    is "re-producable" then it must have been discovered months (and years) ago.

    However, if you combine the c't article with this thread, then suddenly both
    could make sense:

    Is it possible that 10.2.6 applies some minor modification to mounted disks,
    that are (by itself) completely harmless, but subsequently trigger Norton to
    garble the disk during the scan?

    That would explain why it took until now that the "Norton bug" was
    discovered, and it explains why it would look like OS 10.2.6 causing the
    M., Sep 17, 2003
  11. Charlie

    Kay Guest

    Thank U verry much for the first serious contribution !!!

    The story already spun off in other diskussions and in other groups as well (kay
    instead of charlie) ..

    The point just is that what you hear in the article is that Norton is the cause
    of the problem .. but i just discovered that the problem is not Norton but those
    modifiactions: and i call them privileges; because; they concern sectors of the
    disk that can or can not be written, replaced, overwritten, formatted etc - they
    even cannot be formatted under DOS as i explained ..

    the list once more:
    - the driver descriptor index,
    - the partition index,
    - the volume header block, and
    - the alternative header block,
    - the catalog B-tree
    - and sometimes sector9 and the partition table...

    My findings are that problems start to evolve slowly on the os-9 side. When the
    machine is booted under os9.
    Programs hang up more and more often ; Final Cut 3 with me, College's Photohop
    ..., so is the machine, finally it won't start up at all.
    But that's because i am a real intense user .. i see those effects faster than
    others .. i presume.

    The admin privileges under osx are not locking the disks up like under os9. So
    OSx users will not know but they can effect others when sharing their disks ;
    (not via network but fysically)..
    The moment a disk comes in direct contact with osx10.2.6 it is infected with by
    it's permissions.
    I still don't know about those big firewire disks.

    When this bug is introduced ( the moment osx 10.2.6. is installed )
    when Norton repairs your disks it tries to move arround parts that in fact do
    not move; so they are copied but also in their old places and there the
    diskcatastrofie from Norton starts with ...

    One of my college's used Norton 8 but it had the same results .. I did not use
    it because i do not own norton 8, only norton 6. And up till now i was able to
    keep everything right in shape .. and after removing osx10.2.6 i again can keep
    these things in shape.

    But i agree fully that that article refers to exactly the same problem.

    Thanks again you for this input. I hope there come's in more to back this up.
    Finally to be able to make a real cure.


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    Kay, Sep 17, 2003
  12. I was thinking it was like James Bond's license to kill, with OS X
    entering some little witticism in the console every time it dispatched a
    volume: "Don't mind him, he's just spinning."
    Neill Massello, Sep 17, 2003
  13. While I don't know for sure about the driver descriptor index, I am
    pretty sure that *all* of the other items you listed are rewritable
    (though you _will_ lose all data on the disk) by tools like pdisk
    and/or Disk Utility. I have no idea about the detailed limitations
    of any DOS-based formatter, nor do I care. But the idea that things
    like the partition map are permanently "scored into the disk" somehow
    to be dubious, as I myself have seen those things get changed. There
    is nothing magic about the sectors that contain the partition map,
    for example.

    Regardless of what/who is the "cause of the problem", it seems to me
    that those of us who NEVER use Norton will NOT be affected in any
    way by this "OS X 10.2.6-caused" corruption.

    Do you concur?

    If so, perhaps we should change the thread title to:


    Jim Glidewell, Sep 17, 2003
  14. Charlie

    M. Guest

    While the c't article that I mentioned earlier only refers to Norton trying
    to "scan and repair", the user discussion in the article forum featured
    several reports claiming that Norton even manages to destroy data while it
    only scans.

    That could be the core of the mystery - you would assume that Norton only
    shows *existing* problems (unless you tell it to "repair"), while in fact it
    may create problems even if you only search for them.

    There was an interesting contribution by Dale J. Stephenson in the "How do I
    defragment..." sister thread, where he explains why harmless edits of some
    flags may be "repaired" by older Nortons, resulting in big trouble. It must
    be something like that.

    Another thing that sounds very odd to me is this - if the damage is really
    so low-level that even a DOS formatting doesn't solve it, then how could
    DiskWarrior 2.1.1 repair it?

    Unless there are other reports (by people only ever using FirstAid and
    DiskWarrior), it looks like that only Norton shows the problems, and they
    only appear when you use it to *look* for them. Once you stop this vicious
    circle and trash Norton, it should be fine again.
    M., Sep 17, 2003
  15. I'll mention one other possibilty here - there could be a low-level OS9
    hardware or software problem, particularly if these drives are firewire.

    In the posting:


    I detail how Disk First Aid (DFA) on a 8500/G3/OS9 w/PCI firewire card
    would consistently report errors on an external firewire drive, while
    the same exact drive would get a clean bill of health when I moved it
    over to OSX on a G4 with built-in firewire.

    Letting DFA "fix things" on OS9 would have definitely made things worse
    (since the drive data was good initially).

    If the disk errors change from run to run or the scan _without_ repairs,
    then I'd suspect a data integrity error due to a hardware, firmware, or
    driver problem.

    I gave up on firewire HDs on my 8500, BTW...
    Jim Glidewell, Sep 17, 2003
  16. Charlie

    Kay Guest

    If you will use 10.2.6 and still work seriously under 9 then eventually you will
    because the systems hangs itself
    The problem can only be removed after formatting the osx volume with DiscWarrior .. So
    formatting is still involved.
    And the article on http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/se-26.08.03-000/ exactly refers
    to this problem.
    The once who have trouble reading German can use http://altavista.com to translate the
    url from German to English
    The Article "Norton Disk Doktor zerschie├čt Mac-Platten" is exactly the problem but
    fundamentally being caused by OSX10.2.6 and not by Norton. Because a 10.2.2
    installation will not have this devestating effect.
    No i'am sorry.. the problem is caused bij osx10.2.6 norton 5,6,8 can be savely used
    up to version 10.2.2.
    I repeatedly get absolutely consistent results with different machines and different
    software origin.

    However the option to automatically repair should be set to 'off' in Nortons
    But since it concerns major problems you get a interupting window in Norton anyway.
    When errors on
    - the driver descriptor index,
    - the partition index,
    - the volume header block, and
    - the alternative header block,
    - the catalog B-tree
    - and sometimes sector9 and the partition table...
    arrive one should be verry cautious. I 'd say break off .. save all data on a server
    or cd/dvd-r's
    And take out the list provided with the first article unless Apple comes with a patch
    to get rid of the problem. I am conviced they can since they created the problem.

    But on the other way I am affraid apple will not come up with a solution without
    massive critique and insight to this problem from outside because this problem gets
    rid of a lot os9 users (and that's what Apple wants) .. since they will not be able to
    use their equipment without running into the same problems.

    I allready mentioned that no SetupUtility (Not an old one and not the newest one) can
    get rid of the privileges under os9 and that is because they seem to be generated from
    the osx volume .. even where it is not in use as a startup disk .. I say this because
    it is not possible to get rid of them ; not even with Diskwarrior while 'the' or 'a'
    osx volume contain a 10.2.6 system ..
    I thoroughly tried to . .. with all kinds of formating procedures .. and without
    result ! Keep in mind that the os-x volume and their privileges can only be removed
    when the computer is started with another volume with all extensions off .. I know it
    sounds crazy .. but still from the marketing perspective it is as i said earlier its

    Design & Authoring
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    tel. +31(0)73 6446119 / b.g.g. +31(0)6 22985410
    fax +31(0)73 6415878
    Kay, Sep 18, 2003
  17. Charlie

    M. Guest

    This is not really true, since the article does not limit the trouble to OS9
    volumes. You also need to be careful with altavista translations, since
    German/English is about the worst pair of languages as far as automatic
    translations are concerned... :)

    The c't article says that Norton 7 and 8 (those were the tested versions)
    will kill harddisks, regardless of the OS. They didn't test earlier Norton
    versions, because it was already known *before* that they cause trouble (and
    that happened long before even OS-X 10.1 came out!).

    However, the article clearly concludes that the only way to avoid this
    problem will be to stop using Norton at all ("until Symantec provides a
    fix"), and - as a matter of fact - without using Norton, c't couldn't
    confirm the problem.

    As I said before, I consider it possible that indeed 10.2.6 may *trigger*
    something (harmless by itself) that subsequently causes Norton to run Amok
    (that explains why the problem suddenly became significant in recent weeks,
    while Norton 7 is out for a much longer time), but I'm equally convinced
    that it is Norton that *causes* the problem.

    The reason why hardly anyone here will believe this story is simply that it
    doesn't make sense in many respect - for example, if OS-X would really
    mysteriously "lock" the entire boot blocks, then the *very* next Finder task
    would make your Mac going crash boom bang (and not "weeks and months"
    Then, if those blocks are no longer re-writable, how can DiskWarrior repair
    it? A PC/DOS format fails to overwrite the "deadly privileges", but
    DiskWarrior can easily create a new directory and overwrite the old ones (as
    long as no OS-X 10.2.6 volume exists, connected, inactive, dead as a

    Sorry, but this explanation just doesn't work. However, I'd like to
    recommend one thing. According to c't, Symantec "investigates" the problem,
    but refuses to comment so far. You should contact Symantec and tell them
    about your investigation and conclusions. If there is any truth in your
    discovery, then they should know about it, and if it doesn't make sense,
    they sure can explain it to you much better and technically more detailed
    than anyone here. If Symantec can officially confirm your theory, then
    please let us know - after all, this is an interesting subject.
    M., Sep 18, 2003
  18. Charlie

    Kay Guest

    My German is just fine .. Thank U.
    Kay, Sep 18, 2003
  19. Charlie

    Kay Guest

    Thanx, i will contact Symantec on this .. I will post them the article.

    I understand that you are reluctant in following the layout picture, the problem is
    that it is so consistent and because there are not many on this newsgroup working
    for 90% on os9 and 10 % on osx10.2.6 in terms of time and productivity but probably
    mostly working on osx and just a little bit under os9. That group if they are not
    using Norton is weeks or a months away from getting into serious trouble ... and
    maybe they will not even see it when it's under their nose. They will just think
    they own a crappy system and Apple computers are ehh Not Good ..
    Further the once using both platforms intensely will have to still make the jump to
    osx10.2.6 (and afterwards the crash) and exactly that is why this is important for a
    lot of peaople .. And that German article exactly describes the problem, but as i
    said .. Although Norton speeds things up ..
    Its not the source of the problem .. Norton 8 came out now and gives the same


    Kay, Sep 18, 2003
  20. Charlie

    Kay Guest


    I 've posted the story at Symantec..

    Did actually any of you tried the recepy ?
    Kay, Sep 18, 2003
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