OT: Mac Leopard OS, Impressive

Discussion in 'Dell' started by Journey, Oct 20, 2007.

  1. Journey

    Tony Harding Guest

    Sounds like 3 days of fun & music.
    Tony Harding, Oct 27, 2007
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  2. Journey

    wm_walsh Guest

    Good choice. I'm not sure I totally love the form factor of either the
    old plastic ones or the new aluminum one...but they are fast and hard
    to beat. I bought a 17" unit on serious closeout, with the high
    powered ATI video. (That seems to be a rare option on the 17
    I can wind my Macbook up to downright cookin', but it has never
    overheated. It's a Core Duo model. The newer Core 2 Duos run cooler
    And I can remember people asking for that very function around the
    time of Windows 95.
    I think you're right. But Microsoft has a reputation a mile long for
    being a dirty player in the game of competition when someone else's
    product is doing better than theirs.

    The Chinese are a market that cannot be ignored, that is for sure.
    That's the primary thing working to sell me on the Mac. I still
    primarily use Windows, and get along with it fine. It's just not much
    fun to use Windows. Over on the Mac OS though, I can still do just
    about anything I want to do, and it is fun. I don't agree with
    everything Apple does (the action of the home and end keys on a Mac
    drives me nuts) but a lot of it is heading in the direction I want to

    wm_walsh, Oct 27, 2007
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  3. Journey

    Star Guest

    Take it back! Do it now don't wait and have a play!
    It is not what you asked for and not what they said you were getting.
    If they give you any static then this is an idea of things to come and
    lets you know that Apple is not ready for prime time.

    Star, Oct 28, 2007
  4. Journey

    Journey Guest

    I considered taking it back -- I am very assertive, sometimes to a
    fault. However, the OS upgraded very easily and all of the Macs they
    had required this. I am not going to try to understand the technical
    details unless I have to, but it turned out not to be similar to
    upgrading a Windows version. Things were much cleaner with the Mac
    upgrade, and no compatibility issues unlike with Vista.

    I installed VMWare Fusion on the iMac, and the virtual XP Home install
    ran just fine within a Mac window just as if it were a Windows PC.
    Apps ran just fine. I am sure there are some gotchas -- such as
    connecting a Palm PDA or things like that, and I don't think Windows
    games would run very well.
    Journey, Oct 28, 2007
  5. Journey

    Journey Guest

    I've had the iMac for only five days now and feel right at home. It's
    very intuitive. It does help that I used Macs up until 1996. I find
    the OS to be better than Windows.

    With VMWare Fusion, I can run Windows virtually within the Mac. It's
    amazing. The performance is very good. I could run 5 instances of
    Windows if I wanted to (and if I had that many registered copies of
    Windows). The only problem is that I couldn't get it to recognize
    other PCs on my network.

    It also has remote desktop, so I access my XPS 410 through that, and
    can switch between the PC and Mac quickly using the spaces feature, so
    either Mac or Windows is available on my 24" monitor and they share
    the keyboard and mouse.

    Unfortunately, Remote Desktop only works from the Mac to Windows. I'm
    pretty lazy and like to do my computing from a laptop in my living
    room, but I can't access the Mac from my Windows laptop (I can access
    the files however).

    The iMac is pretty amazing. The screen brightness and contrast is
    better than Dell's 24" wide screen that I have right next to it. It
    takes up hardly any desk space. It comes very well equipped with
    bundled software.

    If I only had to have one computer, and had a registered copy of
    Windows, it would be tempting to buy an iMac or Mac laptop and run
    Windows virtually from it. However, I keep most of my personal
    productivity info. on my Windows laptop which has software that
    doesn't run on the Mac, so the Mac will be my fun machine for iTunes,
    iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, and other multimedia type apps.
    Journey, Nov 1, 2007
  6. microsofts remote desktop client on a mac is beeter than their remote
    desktop client on a pc... it supports window scaling which is very nice. on
    a pc you can only select your window size prior to conencting.

    if you want remote desktop server functionality on your mac then have a look
    at vnc.com. they have an enterprise edition of vnc server for $50 that runs
    on a mac. they also have a free trial so you can see if you like it. the
    client software is free.
    Christopher Muto, Nov 1, 2007
  7. LOL, I was in IT 35+ years but am retired now. I haven't had an OO
    Those people need to get out more.
    Rob Nicholson, Nov 1, 2007
  8. Journey

    Journey Guest

    Making the change to object oriented systems is often hard for
    long-time professionals who didn't learn that way. It took me a long
    time to appreciate object-oriented programming for _some_

    I like being able to create and use my own objects. For example, I
    created a financial program that would calculate various financial
    scenarios. I could create accounts, normal or tax deferred, expenses
    such as "car every 7 years with a start date", ongoing expenses, etc.
    I could then determine, in very clear terms, the financial impact of
    buying vs. renting, buying a car every 3 years vs. 7 or 10 years, etc.
    (the hard parts are that one can't predict the variables such as
    interest rates accurately, and calculating taxes was not something I
    knew how to do). I was very surprised, and pleased, that my program
    produced the same results as Quicken's planner.

    So, object-oriented program obviously made that program a lot easier.
    That's the plus side.

    The down sides, for me, are many ...

    Learning an object-oriented language is a lot harder than a procedural
    one, because the language is the easy part. The hard part is the
    object model that goes along with it. For C++, it was MFC (Microsoft
    Foundation Classes) for Windows programming. Java, .NET, and other
    object-oriented languages have extensive object models, and my brain
    lost it when I tried to learn all of them (impossible). That's what
    made me decide not to spend my life energy on programming any more --
    that plus the fact that in addition to object models, different tools
    also needed to be learned -- Frameworks especially, and in the case of
    non-MS languages, enough Unix to be able to do what one needs to do.

    Object-oriented code can be very hard to understand. You can end up
    with mind-boggling statements if the programmer doesn't code in a way
    that makes the code self-documenting and instead creates very
    complicated statements. That too is what drove me away from

    For very complex systems, sometimes very abstract user-created objects
    are used. I forgot what the term for them is -- something like object
    patterns. Books are written showing the model for these kinds of

    In the past, nostalgic COBOL days, one could look at a program and JCL
    and see what the program is doing. With object-oriented distributed
    programming and things like database triggers, the code isn't in one
    place -- it's in the database, and in many objects, in frameworks, and
    abstract models, in XML translations, etc. I have no idea how one
    could sit down and understand some enterprise-level object oriented

    Change management becomes complex too -- so much so that I would be
    paralyzed trying to understand how my change would affect everything,
    and having a backout plan. In addition, more than one person can work
    on one piece of code at a time managed by a change management process
    (e.g. CVS for Java).

    The IT professional of today needs to specialize IMO, and that's scary
    to me. What if I specialize on Java, and then using it becomes
    obsolete? All the time learning everything associated with Java
    development goes out the window.

    Personally, I would love to specialize, for fun and possible profit,
    on iPhone / iTouch development when Apple opens it up. I'd like to
    port many of the simple Palm / Windows Mobile type apps (not directly,
    just taking ideas and concepts) to mobile OSX.
    Journey, Nov 1, 2007
  9. Journey

    Star Guest

    /SNIP large/

    I really think that you are getting too over the top in this thread.
    If you wish to join the Apple advocate groups go there and post.
    An occasional OT post can be accepted and to many informative
    but long post after long post is over the top.
    Sorry if you take this wrong.

    Star, Nov 1, 2007
  10. Journey

    Tony Harding Guest

    You're probably right, Rob.
    Tony Harding, Nov 2, 2007
  11. Journey

    Journey Guest

    Thanks for the feedback. I kept the comments confined to this thread
    so that people could ignore it based on the thread's title. I don't
    think I will post any new Apple-related threads here. Maybe some
    people read this group from a non-threaded newsreader, in which case
    it would be harder for them to ignore a specific thread.
    Journey, Nov 2, 2007
  12. Learning an object-oriented language is a lot harder than a procedural
    That's not really part of the language though. If we didn't have object
    models, we'd have HUGE flat API libraries. I know which I'd prefer. Yes I
    appreciate that when moving into a new area (e.g. Excel object model) then
    there is a big learning curve but I think it would actually be harder with a
    flat API. Spend enough time with Microsoft models for example and you start
    to learn the consistent approach. For example, Excel/PPT/Word application at
    the top, then a collection of "things" (workbooks,slides,documents) etc.
    Ahh well that's a different decision ;-)
    Software is now a lot more complex than it used to be. I've been around
    years and the amount of stuff you have to remember/use is huge. Not many
    other professions require it's devotees to keep learning so much new stuff
    every year. Medicine doesn't change as rapidly as our industry.
    I'd argue the opposite to this. OO makes you think in logical chunks and
    with consistent conventions. Big flat APIs don't benefit from this
    I appreciate what you're saying here but that's not OO really - that's
    modern operating system and application frameworks. The programming world is
    also going to get a *LOT* harder as multitasking finally hits the mass
    programming community. Until now, only a relatively small number of
    programmers when taken as a whole had to worry about multitasking. You could
    rely upon CPUs getting faster every year. That's not happening now. Moores
    law is failing.

    Also, in your COBOL days, systems just weren't as interconnected and mashed
    up as they are now. We *needed* different paradims (right word?) to cater
    for this brave new world.
    Always a risk but it's not the industries fault if one fails to keep abreast
    of changes :)

    Cheers, Rob.
    Rob Nicholson, Nov 2, 2007
  13. I really think that you are getting too over the top in this thread.

    Actually, I personally think it's *time* we all had debates like this :)
    Rob Nicholson, Nov 2, 2007
  14. Journey

    RnR Guest

    So correct me if I'm wrong. In your opinion, the pc is better for
    productivity perhaps due to the available software and the Apple is
    better for the rest? This is what I have thought for years based on
    what I read years ago but I'd rather hear it from your "current"

    Apologies to the rest who are not interested in Apple but I don't
    think it is too OT as we are comparing Journey's opinion of his Dell
    pc to his Apple laptop or so I think we are :) .
    RnR, Nov 2, 2007
  15. Journey

    Tony Harding Guest

    Hear, hear! Thread's marked OT after all.
    Tony Harding, Nov 2, 2007
  16. Journey

    Journey Guest

    I didn't use the Mac from 1996 until now, so my current opinions are
    based on my experience with Leopard (10.5) over the past week.

    I do prefer the newest Mac OS (Leopard) over Vista because of
    user-interface features like Spaces, which give you as many desktops
    as you want to organize and switch between. I could go on but it's
    beyond the scope of what I'd want to post here.

    For Windows users, the most significant ramification is that it's
    likely that the next iteration of Windows is likely to put a lot of
    focus on user-interface changes. I would expect, for example, to be
    able to rearrange task bar buttons.

    I think Microsoft might be "hobbled" a bit by its Windows legacy --
    the way the code evolved, and the Mac OS might be cleaner, which
    results in Apple being able to release upgrades more frequently that
    don't break existing applications.

    I bought a Mac Book (recently refreshed with Santa Rosa and updated
    graphics engine) to complement my iMac, and I am going to try to run
    my Windows applications within it to see if the two can really
    co-exist well together. There are two products that allow a virtual
    Windows session to run at the same time as the Mac OS (so Windows is a
    window within the Mac). The two products are Parallels, and VMWare
    Fusion. Because Mac sales have been increasing a lot I am going to
    look at the stock for those two companies -- might be an opportunity
    if they haven't already run up too much. Apple sold 2 million copies
    of Leopard the first weekend it was out.

    So, for Windows users one good reason to like the Mac is because it is
    going to keep pushing Microsoft to develop better versions of Windows.

    Note: I am writing this from my Mac Book running the Remote Desktop
    client that Microsoft provides (2.0 beta 2) to enable Mac computers to
    connect to Windows computers, just like the Remote Desktop available
    on Windows PCs. It works great.
    Journey, Nov 3, 2007
  17. Journey

    Tony Harding Guest

    Very much a situation of their own making for pushing buggy software
    with a crap design out the door time after time, i.e., the Microsoft
    business model. Apple has always had the edge over Microsoft on design
    and overall product integration.
    Tony Harding, Nov 3, 2007
  18. I think Microsoft might be "hobbled" a bit by its Windows legacy --
    That is very much the case and it goes all the way back to the original
    (awful) 8086 architecture. The decision by IBM to go with the Intel CPU
    instead of the Motorola 68k range put the industry back five years IMHO. The
    Intel chipsets still aren't very "nice" IMHO compared to what else has been

    Unfortunately, best doesn't always win...

    Apple has a much lower installed user base and the number of hardware
    devices is far less so compatibility is less of an issue.

    Cheers, Rob.
    Rob Nicholson, Nov 5, 2007
  19. Journey

    Tom Scales Guest

    I don't get it. How would you expect a machine that is already in stock
    in the store and likely shipped weeks ago to already have an OS that was
    just released this week?

    Of course it didn't.

    Big deal.
    Tom Scales, Nov 27, 2007
  20. Journey

    Tom Scales Guest

    The irony is that if Microsoft put a backup utility with those features
    in Windows, they'd be sued by the backup software vendors for anti-trust
    violations -- and might win!
    Tom Scales, Nov 27, 2007
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