OT: Remote Desktop

Discussion in 'Dell' started by journey, May 9, 2006.

  1. journey

    journey Guest

    Hi, I think for a lot of people who have been around computers, there
    are blind spots.

    So, let me say it here: I have a LOT of blind spots :)

    I thought I would just come to this group around the time of my Dell
    purchases then exit, but I am learning a lot here, and applying what I
    learn.

    For example, I am going to Google and look into this some more.

    I thought I was protected well with my surge-protector power supplies,
    regardless of daisy-chaining but I guess I'm not.

    I thought UPS was for people who didn't want to use the data in their
    Excel spreadsheet that they haven't saved for an hour :)

    I hate the thought of another expense though, I am now on a budget,
    however I have 7 external hard drives so an "event" that could fry one
    or more isn't a nice thought.

    So, with a UPS how does it work.

    My desktop system has:

    - two monitors
    - 7 external hard drives

    Then USB connection to:

    - Palm TX cradle (for sale)
    - Treo 650 cradle
    - Axim X51v Cradle

    Then I have a printer and a scanner.

    Other stuff, digital cameras...

    But really the important thing is the disk drives right? Everything
    else doesn't need a UPS, just a surge-protector.

    So, I have one UPS. Could I think plug two or more APC surge
    protectors (11 outlet) into it?

    Again, I am definitley NOT a computer expert -- I am more of a HACK
    learning a lot here :)

    Journey
     
    journey, May 12, 2006
    #21
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  2. journey

    journey Guest

    Well it's nice to know where you are coming from. Obviously, I've
    listened to you in this thread, so maybe you can keep an open mind for
    a second...

    You said:

    "you like wasting your money on electricity, your ignorant to the fact
    you are adding to global warming, would you be american by chance?"

    Basically instead of educating, you said something insulting, and not
    even directed at an individual -- you generalized and insulted
    Americans in general.

    I want to tell you that in every country of the world there are all
    kinds of people, and that there are _many_ Americans sympathetic
    towards the ecology of the world.

    Instead of directing your comments at a person in an insulting way,
    find out where they are coming from educate them and see if they have
    an open mind like I have in this thread. I have been turning off
    lights more in my apartment for example and I am interested in
    calculating what my computer setup consumes.

    Instead of insulting Americans here in this group, it would be better
    to find more relevant groups and then talk about America's consumption
    (e.g. gas guzzlers) and commitment or lack thereof to treaties (like
    the Kyoto treaty).

    Or, go ahead and start a separate, responsible thread on power
    consumption. The people here are very reasonable.

    Here, in this group, I am a participant, and I happen to be an
    American (I am not the country) and therefore in the future please
    talk to me as a person and please do not direct stereotypes towards me
    and assume the worst.

    Thanks for listening,

    Journey
     
    journey, May 12, 2006
    #22
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  3. journey

    User N Guest

    People who don't properly munge their email address in newsgroup
    posts cause various server and network resources to be needlessly
    wasted by spammers. You aren't using a properly munged address.
    Change "your money" to "other peoples' money" and "american" to
    "noob" and one would have a fair return (as in serve). Obviously
    you are ignorant of the consequences of your actions. So here is
    a tip. There is an email address munging faq and numerous articles
    on the subject. Google is your friend. As is .invalid. Embedded
    parentheses like that are not. Though they are amusing.
     
    User N, May 12, 2006
    #23
  4. journey

    w_tom Guest

    Your reasoning assumes a surge protector somehow stops, blocks, or
    absorbs destructive transients. They don't. Plug-in protector
    manufacturers spin half-truths hoping you will *assume*.

    Electrically, is that protector located between a transient and your
    transistors? Or course not. The protector (daisy chained on power
    cables) is electrically connected as if plugged into a separate wall
    receptacle. IOW the protector connects to AC as if it were another
    light bulb.

    When a destructive transient occurs, it strikes electronics and
    protector simultaneously. Does transient first crash on protector,
    then hit transistors? No. Imagine your electronics and protectors
    lined along the beach. Wave strikes all at the same time.

    So where is the protection? Well, protectors don't stop a
    destructive transient. Effective protectors are only temporary
    connections to protection. Protectors and protection are two
    completely different items in a protection 'system'. Did you assume
    protector and protection was same?

    Protection - the most critical component in a protection system - is
    earth ground. Notice that plug-in protectors 1) have no earthing
    connection and 2) avoid all discussion about earthing.

    So we go to products from companies that have a long history of being
    responsible. They sell a 'whole house' protector that provide that
    dedicated earthing wires. Companies such as GE, Cutler-Hammer,
    Polyphaser, Leviton, Intermatic, and Siemens sell 'whole house'
    protectors in Home Depot, Lowes, and electrical supply houses. What do
    these protectors do? Temporary connect to earth so that a destructive
    transient will not seek earth, destructively, via your electronics.
    That also means your building earthing must be upgrade to meet or
    exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code requirements.

    So that APC claims to provide surge protection. OK. That's what the
    color glossy said. But what do the spec sheets say? What type of
    protection do they list for each type of surge? Once they listed
    protection from only one type of surge. IOW they only claimed
    protection from a transient that typically does not cause damage. So
    that you don't ask embarrassing questions, they don't even list
    protection for each type of transient. The embarrassing question is,
    "Where is the protection from longitudinal mode transients?" Plug-in
    protectors don't even claim such protection. Why? Where is the all so
    critical and 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth? No earth ground
    means no effective protection.

    Take a $3 power strip. Add some $0.05 parts. Sell it for $20 or
    $80. Why would they do anything to undermine such profits? How many
    joules on that UPS? Notice almost near zero joules to claim 'surge
    protection'. Yes it does protect from a surge that is irrelevant. Why
    install sufficient joules? They don't claim to protect from typically
    destructive transients. Why then waste money on joules that cannot be
    effective?

    Anything that would be effective at the electronics already is inside
    the Dell. Internal protection that assumes you have earthed a
    destructive transient long before it got near to a Dell. Provided are
    manufacturers and sources for effective 'whole house' protectors and
    for upgrading earthing. Transients earthed before entering the
    building will not overwhelm protection already inside that Dell.

    How effective is a 'whole house' protector? So effective and so
    inexpensive that your phone line has one installed, for free, by the
    telco. Again, a protector only as effective as the earth ground you
    have provided for them to connect to.

    Don't blindly assume the words protector and protection describe same
    thing. Don't assume protectors somehow stop, block, or absorb surges.
    Don't assume names such as APC, Tripplite, and Belkin are quality
    protector manufacturers. First start with facts. What does lightning
    seek? Earth ground. What does an effective protector do? Connects
    lightning to earth ground - and without surge protector failure. What
    does internal protection inside all appliances require? Lightning must
    be earthed before entering a building so that internal protection is
    not overwhelmed. Effective protectors therefore make a 'less than 10
    foot' connection to earth. Effective 'whole house' protectors are
    listed above.

    UPS has one function - to maintain voltage to computer during
    blackouts and extreme brownouts. That is data protection; not hardware
    protection. You may need data protection for an Excel spread sheet -
    the UPS. But every transistor in the building needs hardware
    protection - a properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Data and
    hardware protection are only provided in the same location when you
    have a building wide (and properly earthed) UPS.
     
    w_tom, May 12, 2006
    #24
  5. journey

    Jay B Guest

    i would put the computer, monitors and external drives on the battery
    side of the UPS, and printers and other devices on the non-battery side
    (surge-only).
    NO, not true
    no, shouldnt do that for reasons explained by other poster
    we know... we know...
     
    Jay B, May 12, 2006
    #25
  6. journey

    Jay B Guest

    bravo! nicely said.


    in addition, i always tell customers to make sure whatever you buy,
    comes with protection warranty of at least $1000 and some cases, $5000 ,
    $25000, $5000 or more. in the rear event that you do get that big bolt
    of misfortune, then the insurance will kick in and help out with the
    disaster.
    that is provided you don't daisy chain multiple surge protectors
    together and void the warranty, or forget to protect the phone lines or
    cabletv line going to your modem, which is connected to your hub, which
    is connected to you NIC. that surge can come thru the the back door
    while the electric is protected, even by a expensive device, and the
    insurance wont pay up. i see this happen a lot!
     
    Jay B, May 12, 2006
    #26
  7. journey

    Sean Corbett Guest

    Mars is warming at EXACTLY THE SAME pace as Earth. What is the favorite
    SUV of Martians?

    A chart of Earth temperatures EXACTLY MATCHES a chart of sunspot activity.
    What human activity causes sunspots?
     
    Sean Corbett, May 12, 2006
    #27
  8. journey

    w_tom Guest

    "protection warranty of at least $1000 and some cases, $5000, $25000,
    $5000 or more" is bull. Many have posted about getting claims honored.
    Most only get a protector replaced. A best surge protector offers no
    warranty. Did you not also notice that with cars? Do Toyota and Honda
    promote big buck warranties? A surge warranty is hype - so chock full
    of exemptions as to not be honored. For example, one more way of not
    honoring a warranty is from APC: using a protector from any other
    manufacturer voids APC's protector warranty. They have layers of these
    exemptions. The only useful warranty is what a licensed insurance
    broker - one who must meet federal laws - provides.

    Meanwhile both telephone and NIC are (must be) protected. You did
    know about the 'whole house' protector installed on all phone line?
    You do know why cable companies are so actively re-educating their
    installers? Previous cable installations were defective. Cable -
    properly installed - already has superior and effective 'whole house'
    protection.

    Yes every incoming utility must make that short 'less than 10 foot'
    connection to earth. Otherwise a back door exists. Adjacent plug-in
    protectors can even make that damage easier. What does a plug-in
    protector do? Provides a transient with more destructive paths through
    an adjacent and powered off computer. What kind of protection is that?
    Yes, an AC power protector even contributed to modem and NIC damage -
    surge path traced by literally replacing ICs.

    A protector that does not have an earthing connection (all plug-in
    protectors) can even contribute to damage of adjacent electronics.
    Those with biggest buck warranties also tend to be least effective
    protectors (and a warranty chock full of exemptions). A protector is
    only as effective as its earth ground. Provided were a long list of
    effective protector manufacturers. The warranty is bull. Licensed
    insurance brokers and proper earthing define a 'system' of protection.

    Daisy chaining is not bad for reasons posted above. What is another
    source of spikes to a computer? UPS in battery backup mode. This UPS
    outputs 120 volts. 120 volts is two 200 volt square waves with up to a
    270 spike between those square waves. It is called a computer grade
    UPS because these voltages can be harmful to other electronics but not
    harmful to computers. These voltages can also harm a power strip
    protector or the UPS if doing daisy chaining. Daisy chaining does
    nothing to provide protection. But it can cause other problems
    especially when UPS is in battery backup mode.

    Notice some important and new points. Phone lines and cable already
    (should) have effective protection. But, as posted earlier, that
    protection will only be as effective as the earthing you have provided.
    Warranty on protectors is mythical. A computer grade UPS can output
    spikes so large as to be harmful to other (non-computer) electrical
    devices.
     
    w_tom, May 12, 2006
    #28
  9. journey

    Joe Guest

    Basically instead of educating, you said something insulting, and not
    sorry for generalising, but only an idiot would vote bush in for a 2nd term
    hence I was on a 50%+ chance of being right by assuming? You sound like a
    smart guy, I hope you can make your vote count for the next time.
     
    Joe, May 12, 2006
    #29
  10. journey

    Joe Guest

    User N looks at the munged email address above and thinks of ways of
    what? i've got my unmunged email address on a website anyway so it doesn't
    matter what i put here. I currently have 73 unread spam emails on that
    address, do i care if it uses up hotmail server space? no.
     
    Joe, May 12, 2006
    #30
  11. journey

    journey Guest

    Wrong again. Some people never learn.

    Journey
     
    journey, May 13, 2006
    #31
  12. journey

    User N Guest

    First of all, different spammers harvest from different places and it isn't as
    though every list gets sold to every spammer. In general, the more places
    you put the address, the more lists you'll get on and the more spam you'll
    get. Up to a point, then it plateaus. In any case, you've also posted to
    newsgroups using your unmunged email address, so yes, you have already
    screwed up and guaranteed that Hotmail *and* countless other networks
    and people around the world will be burdened with the costs and side
    effects of handling your spam (the volume of which is almost surely much
    higher than what you think based on looking at what made it through to
    your folders). If you stopped using unmunged and improperly munged
    addresses your spam levels would gradually decrease over time, so it is
    still the thing to do. While spammers are the real villians here, you too
    bear some responsibility for the monetary, environmental, etc costs
    (whatever those may be). If you want to blow that off, label it trivial,
    whatever... that is fine with me. I just figured it was worth pointing out ;-)

    As an aside, the most essential act of conservation at this point would
    be for as many people as possible to not procreate. You mentioned
    kids... please adopt :)
     
    User N, May 13, 2006
    #32
  13. journey

    Joe Guest

    As an aside, the most essential act of conservation at this point would
    I'm unsure if the kids of today are problems of bad genes or just shit
    parenting (UK), until then I'll have my own! Two areas of my town have been
    put off limits to these wasters by dispersion orders, but not my estate so
    now they all come here. I want to knee cap them all, wish they'd stop
    wearing their shell reebok crap, white trainers and nike baseball caps
    tilited up to make them look like twats. Better known as chavs, I wonder do
    you have similar retards there?

    p.s. changed my email addy?? g/f wants four kids i said two! The birth rate
    in the UK is actually falling, and there are no longer enough births to
    replace deaths. As more mothers put off child bearing till later in life,
    leaving it too late for natural means to take its course.
     
    Joe, May 13, 2006
    #33
  14. Most "surge protectors" offer virtually no real protection, as mentioned
    in my previous post you ought to look into a UPS (APC, the company Pat
    mentions, has been around for a long time and I'd recommend them).
    While it's not the best thing to do, you should be fine. I happen to
    work with a tone of PhD's in electrical engineering, and I have seen
    them daisy chain outlet strips themselves. If all the power strips are
    short (not in the electrical sense -- I mean length), you should be
    fine; however, if you're using long extension cords the voltage seen on
    the far end will be significantly less (but still enough to power most
    electronics).
    Based on the number of threads you've posted about different model
    laptops and monitors, I have no doubt.
    Perhaps now may be a good time to take a second look at Linux...
     
    Nicholas Andrade, May 13, 2006
    #34
  15. journey

    journey Guest

    I'd love to look at Linux more. There are so many flavors though that
    I don't know where to start.

    Journey
     
    journey, May 13, 2006
    #35
  16. journey

    w_tom Guest

    If Einstein lives in my building, does that make me a physics genius?
    If I know George Bush; therefore I must be intelligent? It's called
    Rush Limbaugh logic.

    To know a fact, instead learn numbers and why - demand underlying
    principles and numerical facts. APC protector (UPS or power strip
    since both have same protector circuit) are shunt mode protectors.
    Shunt modes protectors do not stop, block, or absorb transients. And
    yet that is exactly what an APC protector (adjacent to electronics)
    must do to be effective. First reason why we know an APC is not
    effective. Since it does not stop or absorb transients, then others
    must avoid saying why (with numbers) an APC is effective.

    Go to the only fact sheet that is significant: a long list of
    specifications with numbers. That APC is rated in joules - just like
    other protectors said to "offer virtually no real protection" - and yet
    use same electrical circuit. So putting letters APC on a same
    protector makes it effective? Then we ask, "How many joules?" A
    damning number. Another reason why APC is not effective - AND another
    reason why APC promoters don't provide numbers. A classic Rush
    Limbaugh technique. Make a claim. Provide no proof. The naive then
    blindly believe; don't first demand numerical specs. Second reason why
    APC is not effective - missing numbers and basic facts.

    Of course, if APC provided protection, then it would list numbers for
    each type of transient. Once APC did provide some specs. IOW they
    once claimed protection only from a transient that typically does not
    cause damage. Quoting those specs:
    Third reason why APC is not effective: only claims to protect from
    one type of surge. Since protector does not connect to earthing, then
    where are numbers for how much transient it stops or blocks? It does
    not claim to stop or block - which it must do to be adjacent to
    transistors. Therefore numbers are not provided. It does not claim to
    earth anything - which shunt mode protectors must do. IOW the APC does
    not even claim to be effective - missing earthing for a shunt mode
    protector.

    How to identify an ineffective protector: 1) no dedicated connection
    to earth, and 2) manufacturer avoids all mention of earthing. Fourth
    reason why recommended APC is not effective.

    Let's see. APC has been around for years. Therefore their product
    must do something - just like Activia creates intelligence, and just
    like age defying creams from the Pond's institute. What kind of logic
    is that? Logic promoted by propaganda. Another poster does not
    provide one single technical prove. But he knows a PhD electrical
    engineer. Therefore that is proof? Fifth reason why the APC
    recommendation is bogus.

    Listed were effective protectors from responsible manufacturers -
    Intermatic, Square D, Polyphaser, Leviton, GE, and Siemens. APC,
    Belkin, Tripplite, and Monster (eachl using same protector circuit in
    the grocery store protector) are not listed effective. What do
    effective protectors do? Make a short connection to earth. An
    effective protector has a dedicated connection to earth - what APC
    hopes you never learn; profits being so high.

    Five reasons why that APC recommendation is bogus.

    The APC does same as - has same circuit - as those other protectors
    that "offer virtually no real protection". And yet somehow, by knowing
    a PhD engineer and seeing letters APC, the poster is technically
    knowledgeable? He does not even provide numbers like a salesman would
    do. Somehow Rush Limbaugh logic is sufficient to recommend APC
    products.

    Effective protection is also called 'whole house' - a concept so
    inexpensive and so well proven as to be sold by responsible
    manufacturers and to also be installed on every North American phone
    lines. That's right. Even your telco installs superior protection -
    for free.
     
    w_tom, May 14, 2006
    #36
  17. journey

    User N Guest

    I imagine troublesome youths and tacky subcultures exist in all
    countries and I suspect genetics rarely plays a major role in that.
    I see you did, and the new one is more likely to be rejected by sanity
    checks. However the @hotmail.com remains and that is the most
    important thing to change. Some spamware will take that address,
    automatically strip the (...) part as a comment, then attempt delivery
    to the resulting email address. It won't arrive in your inbox, but it
    will still cross the net and hit Hotmail's server in part or in whole.
    FWIW, the two examples below illustrate better approaches...

    joe_g_g uses hot mail

    That may be, however I think it takes awhile for that to catch up and
    there is also migration to consider. I don't know how well it correlates
    with UK projections, but there is a US Census Bureau International
    Database:

    http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idbnew.html

    which I've explored from time to time and a quick look at its UK
    projections suggests that your total population may be trending
    higher for quite some time. US projections from the same source
    are included for reference, and should be enough to make anyone
    cringe. FWIW, most of our increases have been and presumably
    will be for some time attributed to immigrants and births to
    immigrants (who also tend to have higher birth rates).


    Table 001. Total Midyear Population
    ---------------- --------------------
    Country or area/
    Year Population
    ---------------- --------------------
    United Kingdom

    2005 60,441,457
    2010 61,284,806
    2015 62,175,095
    2020 63,068,016
    2025 63,818,586
    2030 64,303,846
    2035 64,497,153
    2040 64,462,227
    2045 64,276,710
    2050 63,977,435

    United States

    2005 295,734,134
    2010 309,162,581
    2015 322,592,787
    2020 336,031,546
    2025 349,666,199
    2030 363,811,435
    2035 378,113,238
    2040 392,172,658
    2045 406,089,392
    2050 420,080,587
    ---------------- --------------------
    Source: U.S. Census Bureau, International
    Data Base.
     
    User N, May 15, 2006
    #37
  18. I use Ubuntu on one machine at work (an older Optiplex, P3-800MHz w/
    128MB of RAM); it's been quite reliable (in fact I haven't rebooted the
    machine in over 3 months). The distro is typically considered fairly
    good for beginners in Linux, and although I haven't tried it, I've been
    told Mepis is a nice beginner distro. Personally, I like Fedora a lot,
    and I think it's fairly beginner friendly but not everyone agrees.
    Finally there is Mandriva (formerly Mandrake Linux); like Mepis I
    haven't tried it but I know a number of people who like it a lot.
    There's an excellent guide available for 3 of the distros I mentioned
    here: http://easylinux.info/wiki/Main_Page

    What I'd recommend doing is playing around with a Live CD distro like
    Knoppix (it is Debian based, like Ubuntu & Mepis). The next version of
    Ubuntu, 6.06 (Dapper Drake), is coming out in June and would be a great
    time to jump in. On a side note Mandriva and Fedora are Red Hat based.
     
    Nicholas Andrade, May 15, 2006
    #38
  19. journey

    journey Guest

    Thank you. As usual, I am a sponge when it comes to good info. I
    like that I can most likely install Linux on one of my external
    drives. I will have a little reading to do about that and the boot
    process to make sure I don't mess up my booting into my current hard
    disk installed OS (Windows MCE).

    Then, before I start with Linux I am going to write out a vision
    statement or some goal / cost / benefit analyses of learning Linux.
    When I was a computer professional, it was pretty clear -- one of the
    camps I was learning was Java, which works well on linux / unix based
    systems with a hodge podge of (well managed) open technologies. Red
    Hat gulped one of them up -- JBoss. So, will I be looking at Linux as
    a developer or a user. As a developer there are clear reasons to, but
    that doesn't seem to be my path in the short term anyway. As a user,
    unfortunately, Windows and the apps that I use (great apps that many
    people don't know about form the foundation of my computer software)
    are enough. In fact, Linux is likely to offer much less than Windows
    from a user standpoint, even though I hate that we let a judicially
    recognized monopoly continue its unfair practices unencumbered (it is
    happy to let competitors co-exist with paltry market shares so it can
    at least say that it has competition).

    However, since I can install it on one of my external hard drives, it
    might be a fun thing to do on a boring rainy day. Heck, I could
    install all of it (assuming parts don't conflict with each other) on a
    250G hard drive. But then what would I do with it? I could run
    X-windows or whatever the x-thing-is-these-days and look at the pretty
    GUI (and be frustrated at how limited it is compared to Windows), but
    the main thing I think would be that I'd learn about security and
    authorities and how the various sandboxes are set up and that would be
    a good starting point.

    So, I noted what you said above and it's on my list of one of the
    things I can do one of these weekends (I don't know why I still think
    in terms of weekends since I haven't worked since September 2001...).

    Thanks again for the pointers,

    Journey
     
    journey, May 16, 2006
    #39
  20. journey

    Pat Conover Guest

    Snip
    Tom, If I get a whole house surge protector from Square D for my electric
    panel box, can I still use an APC-UPS? Because, I not only need surge
    protection, but I also need power backup for all my computer and other
    electronic devices. I live near a major highway and people are always
    crashing into the electric poles, which causes my power to go on and off
    frequently for short duration's, usually less than a minute.
    Thanks, Pat
     
    Pat Conover, May 16, 2006
    #40
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