OT: Remote Desktop

Discussion in 'Dell' started by journey, May 9, 2006.

  1. journey

    Leythos Guest

    Yes, a whole house protector does nothing to protect you from power
    outages or sags in power. You STILL NEED A UPS, and you should purchase
    a quality one. APC makes nice units.

    One thing you might want to know, we've had a LOT of UPS's installed all
    over the USA, about 1500 systems protected by them, and we've never lost
    a single protected device connected to a UPS while we have lost non-
    protected equipment. W_Tom will tell you that it's BS, that the UPS will
    not protect you, but, real-world experience shows that a quality UPS
    device will protect everything we've seen from power surges that have
    damaged electronic devices that were not on a quality UPS device.

    I like the idea of a whole house surge protection device, but it's not a
    substitute for a UPS, not by any means - you still need a UPS.
     
    Leythos, May 16, 2006
    #41
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  2. journey

    Pat Conover Guest

    Snip
    I like the whole house surge protector idea too. But, as I said in my
    earlier post, "I lost a phone system and other electronics to a lightning
    strike years ago." I lost a new 32" TV, my gas range electronic controls
    fried with a dedicated circuit breaker, the grounded to earth surge
    protected phone system and some other stuff. My well pump was cooked, with
    a good earth ground. Which, I unfortunately didn't find out about until my
    sprinklers wouldn't work the next spring.

    Meanwhile, my PC's using Tripplite UPS back then were not damaged. The
    network hub and PCI cards were fried though. I replaced them and was back
    up and running. With hindsight, I probably should have claimed the PC's
    too, since they may have been damaged, but ultimately weren't, with one
    still running. Don't try and collect on the $25K insurance, unless your an
    attorney with lots of time to waste.

    Pat
     
    Pat Conover, May 17, 2006
    #42
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  3. journey

    Leythos Guest

    Your experience mimics what we see in the field. We install quality APC
    UPS units on racks, at desks, etc... We protect the entire network with
    UPS devices, and we don't allow unprotected devices to be connected to
    the network. In all that time I've seen dozens of unprotected devices on
    connected to the same AC outlet as the UPS that were damaged while the
    UPS devices were not damaged in any manner.
     
    Leythos, May 17, 2006
    #43
  4. journey

    w_tom Guest

    Plug a surge protector in one receptacle of an AC wall plug. Plug a
    computer into that protector. Plug other electronics in another
    receptacle of same wall plug. Are those other electronics protected?
    Yes, if the protector was effective. If that plug-in shunt mode
    proetctor was effective, then everything on the same branch circuit
    would be protected.

    Plug-in protector manufacturers instead like you to assume the power
    strip somehow stops, blocks, or absorbs what three miles of sky could
    not. They are called shunt mode protectors. They are not intended to
    stop or absorb anything. They shunt. And without earth ground, they
    have nothing to shunt to.

    Computers have best internal protection among household appliances.
    In fact, sometimes a surge too small to harm a PC will destroy a
    grossly undersized and ineffective power strip protector. Did a
    transient strike protector before confronting a PC? Only in myths.
    Transient confronted protector, PC and most everything else in that
    branch circuit simultaneously. But to promote grossly overpriced
    plug-in protectors, most manufacturers for decades (until only this
    past year) have intentionally undersized protectors so they will fail.

    If it smokes, the naive will foolishly claim the protector sacrificed
    itself to save the computer. In reality, computer internal protection
    saved computer. A transient woefully too small to harm a computer,
    instead, vaporized the intentionally undersized protector. It is how
    the naive promote ineffective - grossly undersized and overpriced -
    protectors.

    Any protector that vaporized also provided no effective protection.
    The effective protector shunts transients and remains fully functional.
    Vaporized protector even violates what MOV manufacturers require of
    their parts. But smoke does empower the naive to become experts.

    Little relationship exists between function of a UPS (to provide
    power during blackouts and brownouts) and function of transient
    protection (to earth destructive transients). The UPS that does
    provide effective transient protection is a building wide 'system' that
    is adjacent to and connected to earth ground. You don't have that.
    Plug-in APC does not have necessary earthing, does not even claim to
    protect from typically destructive transients, AND is necessary for
    data protection from blackouts and extreme brownouts.

    Functions of UPS and of surge protection involve completely different
    events. Although a surge may result in a blackout, a plug-in UPS is
    only for the blackout. A properly earthed protector is for earthing a
    transient. Earthing so that a transient does not damage electronics -
    that UPS or computer.

    One final point. A surge damaging modem or network card did not also
    damage SIMMs (memory). Why? Well modem or NIC had both an incoming
    and outgoing electrical path. Only damaged were things with both
    incoming and outgoing paths. Memory had exact same surge incoming, but
    no outgoing path. Therefore memory was not damaged.

    Now step back to review your entire building. Not every appliance
    has both incoming and outgoing paths. Therefore same incoming surge
    could confront both TV and adjacent VCR. One is damaged; other is not.
    Why? Adjacent power strip protector has no affect. To appreciate why
    only one is damaged, first learn which was a destructive path to earth.
    Why were some items damaged and others not? What has a path to earth?


    Look at what was damaged. Sure, phone was earthed. That meant a
    direct lightning strike to AC electric wires above street found better
    earthing through grounded phone, well pump, and other stuff. Grounding
    the appliance does nothing useful. Earthing every incoming wire -
    earthing every wire farther from appliance - and earthing every wire as
    close as possible to a single point ground ... all neccessary for
    effective protection.

    What was the inoming and outgoing path through each appliance -
    including that gas stove - which is a scaray answer?

    Appreciate the concept: demonstated by a computer memory SIMM not
    damaged by same transient through modem or NIC. Same surge hit SIMM,
    CPU, modem, and NIC. But only NIC or modem had an outgoing path. Too
    many think of surges like waves crashing on a beach. Electrical
    transients don't work that way. First a transient flows through
    everything in a path from cloud to earth. Only after same transient is
    flowing through everything, only then does something in that path fail.
    Notice, electricity only flows through things with both an incoming
    and outgoing path. Why was well pump damaged and not computer? Throw
    away an adjacent protector and computer still would have protected
    itself. Lightning found better paths into and out of telephone, well
    pump, stove, etc. Grounding those appliances would do nothing useful.
    Earthing every incoming wire (each wire in each pair of a telephone
    cable, all three AC electric wires, TV antenna, etc) - earthing every
    single wire 'less than 10 feet' to earth is what protects appliances 50
    and 200 feet inside the house.

    Again, UPS is for data protecton (from blackouts and brownouts).
    'Whole hosue' protector is for something completely different -
    destructive transients - surges. Two different hardware, located in
    two different locations, to address two completely different electrical
    phenomena.
     
    w_tom, May 17, 2006
    #44
  5. journey

    w_tom Guest

    This post about "people are always crashing into the electric poles"
    brings up another important point. Previous posts and earthing
    incoming utility lines where they enter the building: this is called
    secondary protection. So where is primary protection? Utility
    provides it. But many utility linemen don't appreciate why this is so
    essential to your building electronics (and well pump) protection.
    Pictures demonstrate how to inspect your primary protection system:
    http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
     
    w_tom, May 17, 2006
    #45
  6. journey

    Leythos Guest

    And again you've ignored what people tell you is happening in the real
    world. While I agree, that a "whole House Protector" is a good idea and
    should be installed in sensitive areas, many people have seen a quality
    UPS protect the devices connected to it while devices NOT connected to
    the UPS on the same circuit are damaged.

    You can claim it's not true all you want, you can claim that a UPS is
    only good for blackouts and brownouts, but the facts dispute your
    statements.
     
    Leythos, May 17, 2006
    #46
  7. journey

    Jay B Guest

    perhaps those that are protecting better have automatic voltage
    regulation, which isolates the outgoing voltage from the incoming...
     
    Jay B, May 17, 2006
    #47
  8. journey

    w_tom Guest

    Leythos is doing it again. Because something connected to a plug-in
    UPS, is not damaged, then that proves all APC products effective? He
    again ignored those other electronics, without any APC protector, that
    also were not damaged. It's called 'cherry picking' the data. If
    Leythos logic was valid, then smoke detectors, door bells, dimmer
    switches, electronic clocks, dishwashers, and furnace controls must be
    protected by *invisible* plug-in protectors. Without *invisible*
    protectors, other electronic devices were all damaged. Or maybe his
    logic is flawed. Maybe those electornics protected themselves without
    APC protectors. Maybe invisible protectors do not exist.

    Meanwhile, high reliability centers don't waste money on APC
    protectors. Reliable commercial broadcasters and telephone switching
    stations, instead, earth. Earthing required for a reliable shunt mode
    protector. Earthing - not the protector - is protection. So where
    is a dedicated earthing wire to each APC protector? Earthing does not
    exist. So how does this APC shunt mode protector earth transients? It
    does not. Or does the APC also use invisible earthing connections?

    An APC UPS has one function - battery backup. Power is maintained
    during blackouts and extreme brownouts. So why does Leythos claim that
    APC products are effective (and why does he only advocate APC?)?
    Leythos forgets to mention other *invisible* protectors that also
    protect other electronics ... or electronics actually protect themself.

    To prove his point, then every unprotected electronic device must
    have been damaged. Most electronics - all without plug-in protectors -
    also survived. Why? Protection exixsts inside appliances. Internal
    protection that may be overwhelmed without a properlyearthed install
    'whole house' protector.

    Effective protector is earthed. That means a short earth ground
    connection to every incoming utility wire. Some wires make that
    earthing connection via a 'whole house' protector (such as one provided
    by your telco for free). Other wires obtain protection by direct,
    hardwire earthing (ie cable TV). But in every case, earthing is the
    protection. APC and its advocate, Leythos, ignore that missing
    earthing connection to promote highly profitable products.

    A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Those
    *invisible* protectors are as real as Leythos' APC claims. To make
    those claims, Leythos must ignore all those other undamaged and
    unprotected electronics. Junk science logic used to promote APC
    products.
     
    w_tom, May 18, 2006
    #48
  9. journey

    Leythos Guest

    The same could be said for what you post w_tom.

    You say that the quality UPS units offer no effective protection against
    surges. The problem is that you can't say how the devices that are
    undamaged while on the protected side of a UPS didn't get damaged when
    the devices (same devices) on the unprotected side were damaged.

    So, look at it like this - While I've NEVER said that ALL devices
    protected by a UPS will always be safe, I've said that I've seen MANY
    situations where protected devices were NOT damaged while unprotected
    devices (same exact hardware) were damaged on the same circuit providing
    power to the UPS protected devices.

    Now, explain that away if you can.

    I don't forget anything else, I don't only like APC (although I like
    them better than anything else on the market at this time).

    You seem to be completely ignoring the FACT that exact same devices
    connected to the exact same AC Circuit, some protected by a quality UPS
    device, some not, show that the same protected devices NOT damaged
    experience damage on the unprotected side.

    Don't misunderstand, and I'll say it again, it's not always perfect, but
    I've never lost a single device connected to a "quality" UPS solution
    while I have, in the same installation, lost the same devices not
    protected by the UPS solution.
     
    Leythos, May 18, 2006
    #49
  10. journey

    w_tom Guest

    Protection provided by automatic voltage regulation is already inside
    a computer's power supply. But again, protection already inside
    electronics is also why a surge can damage a grossly undersized
    protector - while computer protects itself. Others instead assume a
    classic myth, "Protector sacrificed itself to save my computer".

    There is no way around what generations of published facts and
    experience demonstrate in virtually every commercial broadcast station
    and telephone switching center. Why does a telephone switching center,
    connected to overhead wires everywhere in town, not suffer computer
    damage? Again, an effective protector is earthed. No earth ground
    means no effective protection. Plug-in protectors have all but no
    earth ground - and hope you don't learn why earthing is essential.
    Plug-in protectors hope you never learn about protection already inside
    electronics.

    Don't take my word for it. Put up numbers - specifications - from
    a manufacturer that claims effective protection. Post those specs.
    Those specs must list numbers for each type of transient. What do
    plug-in protectors not provide? Those numbers. Hope is you never learn
    about each type transient - to encourage mythical protection. But show
    me. Show me numerical specs from that manufacturer for protection from
    each type of transient.

    Little hint. You can't. Leythos has failed to provide those specs -
    repeatedly - in numerous newsgroup discussions. Plug-in manufacturers
    imply protection from a transient that does not typically cause damage.
    What kind of protection is that? Ineffective. Protection already
    exists inside that adjacent electronic appliance.

    Both plug-in and 'whole house' protectors are shunt mode devices.
    Why is a 'whole house' protector effective? 'Whole house' protector
    shunts to earth ground. Plug-in manufacturer hopes you never learn why
    earthing is necessary. Again, no earthing discussion enables junk
    science reasoning to recommend ineffective and so profitable plug-in
    protectors. But don't take my word for it. Post a manufacturer's
    numerical specs for each type of transient. Why does that manufacturer
    forget to provide numbers for protection?
     
    w_tom, May 18, 2006
    #50
  11. journey

    Leythos Guest

    When several people posted in response to your question, that we
    typically use a SU3000 series or a SU2200 series, you completely ignored
    the responses (several times) and waited until someone (not one of those
    people) mentioned a belkin piece of junk.

    Take a look at the SU3000 line and tell me how it doesn't protect
    anything.
     
    Leythos, May 18, 2006
    #51
  12. journey

    w_tom Guest

    So where are those manufacturer numbers for each type of transient?
    Again, those numbers are not provided. Somehow protection is claimed -
    but no numbers or specifications quoted.

    Meanwhile, the SU3000, et al was a color glossy, no numbers,
    subjective claims, and never once mentioned which type of transient it
    protected from. Short the layman of facts, hype subjective (Rush
    Limbaugh) reasoning, and some layman will prmote myths. Where are the
    numbers for each type of transient?

    Once APC did provide some numbers; but only for one type of
    transient. They said little about actual protection - just enough to
    promote speculation and myths. Since then, APC now makes no mention of
    any transient - and provides even less numbers. Why provide numbers
    when they don't even claim effective protection? Why provide numbers
    when no earthing connection exists to shunt into?

    And so again, where are those manufacture numbers for earthing
    transients? How many amps is it rated to earth? How many transients
    will it earth without damage? What is the let-through voltage? How
    many joules? Where are all these numbers for each type of transient?
    Where is the dedicated earthing wire? Or maybe it is as effective as
    invisible specs from the invisible protector. Invisible protectors
    with invisible specs that protected other electronics?

    Reality: appliances already have internal protection. Internal
    protection that may be overwhelmed without proper earthing and a
    'whole house' protector.
     
    w_tom, May 18, 2006
    #52
  13. journey

    Leythos Guest

    If you take the time, and stop your blathering, you can get "the
    numbers", you've already been provided them in past threads where you
    ignored them.

    I'm still waiting on your reasoned response to how devices, the same
    devices, one on a protected UPS segment, one on a non protected segment,
    both powered from the same AC outlet, have the UPS device undamaged
    while the unprotected device is damaged - and this has happened time and
    time again at various locations around the country.

    You keep saying that the devices provide their own means of protection
    and that it has nothing to do with the UPS, but, simple fact is, the
    EXACT SAME DEVICES ARE USED, the protected one isn't damaged, the
    unprotected one IS DAMAGED. In the real world, it makes a good case for
    having a quality UPS to provide surge protection and for the issues
    associated with the normal power conditions that cause data
    loss/corruption.
     
    Leythos, May 18, 2006
    #53
  14. journey

    Tom Scales Guest


    Anybody considered changing the subject line?
     
    Tom Scales, May 18, 2006
    #54
  15. journey

    S.Lewis Guest

    Done.
     
    S.Lewis, May 18, 2006
    #55
  16. journey

    Notan Guest

    Good morning, Stew!

    I'm sorry. What was the question?

    Notan
     
    Notan, May 18, 2006
    #56
  17. journey

    S.Lewis Guest


    Morning backatcha, chief.

    I think it was the "whole house grounding thing" or the " whole ground beef
    housing" issue.

    I lost interest.


    Stew
     
    S.Lewis, May 18, 2006
    #57
  18. journey

    Leythos Guest

    Works for me :)
     
    Leythos, May 18, 2006
    #58
  19. journey

    w_tom Guest

    Leythos again demonstrates the point. I cannot find those numbers
    because those numbers do not exist. If they did exist, then he would
    have provided numbers so many times this request has been made. And so
    again, he tries to change the topic.

    Plug-in manufacturer do not claim effective protection. Those who
    insist otherwise must do everything possible to avoid facts; instead
    hype subjective claims. No specification numbers from the manufacture
    because plug-in power strips do not protect from typically destructive
    transients. APC - that Leythos is always promoting - once published
    this spec. Closest anyone has come to claiming any protection:
    APC, like other plug-in protectors, now puts forth even less
    information. They no longer list each type of transient. Notice, it
    does not and did not claim to protect from another transient that
    typically causes damage.

    It is a shunt mode protector. It shunts (connects, diverts,
    redirects) a destructive transient to earth. A shunt mode protector
    called 'whole house' is effetive; has that earthing connection. A
    protector made more effective when that earthing connection is even
    shorter. The plug-in protector has all but no earthing connection.
    No earth ground means no effective protection. So they don't even
    claim protection in numerical specifications.

    Again, don't take my word for it. Get that long list of numerical
    specs - if you can even find it. Leythos does not provide
    manufacturer numbers for effective protection. He cannot.

    Those numbers do not exist. And then we define why those numbers do
    not exist: no earthing connection. Meanwhile 'whole house' protectors
    cost tens of times less money per protected appliance. Another
    numerical spec.
     
    w_tom, May 18, 2006
    #59
  20. journey

    Leythos Guest

    I've clearly demonstrated that you can't explain how protected devices
    remain undamaged while unprotected devices are damaged.

    Why do you ignore that entire part?
     
    Leythos, May 18, 2006
    #60
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