OT: Remote Desktop

Yes, a whole house protector does nothing to protect you from power
outages or sags in power. You STILL NEED A UPS, and you should purchase
a quality one. APC makes nice units.

One thing you might want to know, we've had a LOT of UPS's installed all
over the USA, about 1500 systems protected by them, and we've never lost
a single protected device connected to a UPS while we have lost non-
protected equipment. W_Tom will tell you that it's BS, that the UPS will
not protect you, but, real-world experience shows that a quality UPS
device will protect everything we've seen from power surges that have
damaged electronic devices that were not on a quality UPS device.

I like the idea of a whole house surge protection device, but it's not a
substitute for a UPS, not by any means - you still need a UPS.

 

Snip

I like the whole house surge protector idea too. But, as I said in my
earlier post, "I lost a phone system and other electronics to a lightning
strike years ago." I lost a new 32" TV, my gas range electronic controls
fried with a dedicated circuit breaker, the grounded to earth surge
protected phone system and some other stuff. My well pump was cooked, with
a good earth ground. Which, I unfortunately didn't find out about until my
sprinklers wouldn't work the next spring.

Meanwhile, my PC's using Tripplite UPS back then were not damaged. The
network hub and PCI cards were fried though. I replaced them and was back
up and running. With hindsight, I probably should have claimed the PC's
too, since they may have been damaged, but ultimately weren't, with one
still running. Don't try and collect on the $25K insurance, unless your an
attorney with lots of time to waste.

Pat

 

Your experience mimics what we see in the field. We install quality APC
UPS units on racks, at desks, etc... We protect the entire network with
UPS devices, and we don't allow unprotected devices to be connected to
the network. In all that time I've seen dozens of unprotected devices on
connected to the same AC outlet as the UPS that were damaged while the
UPS devices were not damaged in any manner.

 

Plug a surge protector in one receptacle of an AC wall plug. Plug a
computer into that protector. Plug other electronics in another
receptacle of same wall plug. Are those other electronics protected?
Yes, if the protector was effective. If that plug-in shunt mode
proetctor was effective, then everything on the same branch circuit
would be protected.

Plug-in protector manufacturers instead like you to assume the power
strip somehow stops, blocks, or absorbs what three miles of sky could
not. They are called shunt mode protectors. They are not intended to
stop or absorb anything. They shunt. And without earth ground, they
have nothing to shunt to.

Computers have best internal protection among household appliances.
In fact, sometimes a surge too small to harm a PC will destroy a
grossly undersized and ineffective power strip protector. Did a
transient strike protector before confronting a PC? Only in myths.
Transient confronted protector, PC and most everything else in that
branch circuit simultaneously. But to promote grossly overpriced
plug-in protectors, most manufacturers for decades (until only this
past year) have intentionally undersized protectors so they will fail.

If it smokes, the naive will foolishly claim the protector sacrificed
itself to save the computer. In reality, computer internal protection
saved computer. A transient woefully too small to harm a computer,
instead, vaporized the intentionally undersized protector. It is how
the naive promote ineffective - grossly undersized and overpriced -
protectors.

Any protector that vaporized also provided no effective protection.
The effective protector shunts transients and remains fully functional.
Vaporized protector even violates what MOV manufacturers require of
their parts. But smoke does empower the naive to become experts.

Little relationship exists between function of a UPS (to provide
power during blackouts and brownouts) and function of transient
protection (to earth destructive transients). The UPS that does
provide effective transient protection is a building wide 'system' that
is adjacent to and connected to earth ground. You don't have that.
Plug-in APC does not have necessary earthing, does not even claim to
protect from typically destructive transients, AND is necessary for
data protection from blackouts and extreme brownouts.

Functions of UPS and of surge protection involve completely different
events. Although a surge may result in a blackout, a plug-in UPS is
only for the blackout. A properly earthed protector is for earthing a
transient. Earthing so that a transient does not damage electronics -
that UPS or computer.

One final point. A surge damaging modem or network card did not also
damage SIMMs (memory). Why? Well modem or NIC had both an incoming
and outgoing electrical path. Only damaged were things with both
incoming and outgoing paths. Memory had exact same surge incoming, but
no outgoing path. Therefore memory was not damaged.

Now step back to review your entire building. Not every appliance
has both incoming and outgoing paths. Therefore same incoming surge
could confront both TV and adjacent VCR. One is damaged; other is not.
Why? Adjacent power strip protector has no affect. To appreciate why
only one is damaged, first learn which was a destructive path to earth.
Why were some items damaged and others not? What has a path to earth?


Look at what was damaged. Sure, phone was earthed. That meant a
direct lightning strike to AC electric wires above street found better
earthing through grounded phone, well pump, and other stuff. Grounding
the appliance does nothing useful. Earthing every incoming wire -
earthing every wire farther from appliance - and earthing every wire as
close as possible to a single point ground ... all neccessary for
effective protection.

What was the inoming and outgoing path through each appliance -
including that gas stove - which is a scaray answer?

Appreciate the concept: demonstated by a computer memory SIMM not
damaged by same transient through modem or NIC. Same surge hit SIMM,
CPU, modem, and NIC. But only NIC or modem had an outgoing path. Too
many think of surges like waves crashing on a beach. Electrical
transients don't work that way. First a transient flows through
everything in a path from cloud to earth. Only after same transient is
flowing through everything, only then does something in that path fail.
Notice, electricity only flows through things with both an incoming
and outgoing path. Why was well pump damaged and not computer? Throw
away an adjacent protector and computer still would have protected
itself. Lightning found better paths into and out of telephone, well
pump, stove, etc. Grounding those appliances would do nothing useful.
Earthing every incoming wire (each wire in each pair of a telephone
cable, all three AC electric wires, TV antenna, etc) - earthing every
single wire 'less than 10 feet' to earth is what protects appliances 50
and 200 feet inside the house.

Again, UPS is for data protecton (from blackouts and brownouts).
'Whole hosue' protector is for something completely different -
destructive transients - surges. Two different hardware, located in
two different locations, to address two completely different electrical
phenomena.

 

This post about "people are always crashing into the electric poles"
brings up another important point. Previous posts and earthing
incoming utility lines where they enter the building: this is called
secondary protection. So where is primary protection? Utility
provides it. But many utility linemen don't appreciate why this is so
essential to your building electronics (and well pump) protection.
Pictures demonstrate how to inspect your primary protection system:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

 

And again you've ignored what people tell you is happening in the real
world. While I agree, that a "whole House Protector" is a good idea and
should be installed in sensitive areas, many people have seen a quality
UPS protect the devices connected to it while devices NOT connected to
the UPS on the same circuit are damaged.

You can claim it's not true all you want, you can claim that a UPS is
only good for blackouts and brownouts, but the facts dispute your
statements.

 

perhaps those that are protecting better have automatic voltage
regulation, which isolates the outgoing voltage from the incoming...

 

Leythos is doing it again. Because something connected to a plug-in
UPS, is not damaged, then that proves all APC products effective? He
again ignored those other electronics, without any APC protector, that
also were not damaged. It's called 'cherry picking' the data. If
Leythos logic was valid, then smoke detectors, door bells, dimmer
switches, electronic clocks, dishwashers, and furnace controls must be
protected by *invisible* plug-in protectors. Without *invisible*
protectors, other electronic devices were all damaged. Or maybe his
logic is flawed. Maybe those electornics protected themselves without
APC protectors. Maybe invisible protectors do not exist.

Meanwhile, high reliability centers don't waste money on APC
protectors. Reliable commercial broadcasters and telephone switching
stations, instead, earth. Earthing required for a reliable shunt mode
protector. Earthing - not the protector - is protection. So where
is a dedicated earthing wire to each APC protector? Earthing does not
exist. So how does this APC shunt mode protector earth transients? It
does not. Or does the APC also use invisible earthing connections?

An APC UPS has one function - battery backup. Power is maintained
during blackouts and extreme brownouts. So why does Leythos claim that
APC products are effective (and why does he only advocate APC?)?
Leythos forgets to mention other *invisible* protectors that also
protect other electronics ... or electronics actually protect themself.

To prove his point, then every unprotected electronic device must
have been damaged. Most electronics - all without plug-in protectors -
also survived. Why? Protection exixsts inside appliances. Internal
protection that may be overwhelmed without a properlyearthed install
'whole house' protector.

Effective protector is earthed. That means a short earth ground
connection to every incoming utility wire. Some wires make that
earthing connection via a 'whole house' protector (such as one provided
by your telco for free). Other wires obtain protection by direct,
hardwire earthing (ie cable TV). But in every case, earthing is the
protection. APC and its advocate, Leythos, ignore that missing
earthing connection to promote highly profitable products.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Those
*invisible* protectors are as real as Leythos' APC claims. To make
those claims, Leythos must ignore all those other undamaged and
unprotected electronics. Junk science logic used to promote APC
products.

 

The same could be said for what you post w_tom.

You say that the quality UPS units offer no effective protection against
surges. The problem is that you can't say how the devices that are
undamaged while on the protected side of a UPS didn't get damaged when
the devices (same devices) on the unprotected side were damaged.

So, look at it like this - While I've NEVER said that ALL devices
protected by a UPS will always be safe, I've said that I've seen MANY
situations where protected devices were NOT damaged while unprotected
devices (same exact hardware) were damaged on the same circuit providing
power to the UPS protected devices.

Now, explain that away if you can.

I don't forget anything else, I don't only like APC (although I like
them better than anything else on the market at this time).

You seem to be completely ignoring the FACT that exact same devices
connected to the exact same AC Circuit, some protected by a quality UPS
device, some not, show that the same protected devices NOT damaged
experience damage on the unprotected side.

Don't misunderstand, and I'll say it again, it's not always perfect, but
I've never lost a single device connected to a "quality" UPS solution
while I have, in the same installation, lost the same devices not
protected by the UPS solution.

 

Protection provided by automatic voltage regulation is already inside
a computer's power supply. But again, protection already inside
electronics is also why a surge can damage a grossly undersized
protector - while computer protects itself. Others instead assume a
classic myth, "Protector sacrificed itself to save my computer".

There is no way around what generations of published facts and
experience demonstrate in virtually every commercial broadcast station
and telephone switching center. Why does a telephone switching center,
connected to overhead wires everywhere in town, not suffer computer
damage? Again, an effective protector is earthed. No earth ground
means no effective protection. Plug-in protectors have all but no
earth ground - and hope you don't learn why earthing is essential.
Plug-in protectors hope you never learn about protection already inside
electronics.

Don't take my word for it. Put up numbers - specifications - from
a manufacturer that claims effective protection. Post those specs.
Those specs must list numbers for each type of transient. What do
plug-in protectors not provide? Those numbers. Hope is you never learn
about each type transient - to encourage mythical protection. But show
me. Show me numerical specs from that manufacturer for protection from
each type of transient.

Little hint. You can't. Leythos has failed to provide those specs -
repeatedly - in numerous newsgroup discussions. Plug-in manufacturers
imply protection from a transient that does not typically cause damage.
What kind of protection is that? Ineffective. Protection already
exists inside that adjacent electronic appliance.

Both plug-in and 'whole house' protectors are shunt mode devices.
Why is a 'whole house' protector effective? 'Whole house' protector
shunts to earth ground. Plug-in manufacturer hopes you never learn why
earthing is necessary. Again, no earthing discussion enables junk
science reasoning to recommend ineffective and so profitable plug-in
protectors. But don't take my word for it. Post a manufacturer's
numerical specs for each type of transient. Why does that manufacturer
forget to provide numbers for protection?

 

When several people posted in response to your question, that we
typically use a SU3000 series or a SU2200 series, you completely ignored
the responses (several times) and waited until someone (not one of those
people) mentioned a belkin piece of junk.

Take a look at the SU3000 line and tell me how it doesn't protect
anything.

 

So where are those manufacturer numbers for each type of transient?
Again, those numbers are not provided. Somehow protection is claimed -
but no numbers or specifications quoted.

Meanwhile, the SU3000, et al was a color glossy, no numbers,
subjective claims, and never once mentioned which type of transient it
protected from. Short the layman of facts, hype subjective (Rush
Limbaugh) reasoning, and some layman will prmote myths. Where are the
numbers for each type of transient?

Once APC did provide some numbers; but only for one type of
transient. They said little about actual protection - just enough to
promote speculation and myths. Since then, APC now makes no mention of
any transient - and provides even less numbers. Why provide numbers
when they don't even claim effective protection? Why provide numbers
when no earthing connection exists to shunt into?

And so again, where are those manufacture numbers for earthing
transients? How many amps is it rated to earth? How many transients
will it earth without damage? What is the let-through voltage? How
many joules? Where are all these numbers for each type of transient?
Where is the dedicated earthing wire? Or maybe it is as effective as
invisible specs from the invisible protector. Invisible protectors
with invisible specs that protected other electronics?

Reality: appliances already have internal protection. Internal
protection that may be overwhelmed without proper earthing and a
'whole house' protector.

 

If you take the time, and stop your blathering, you can get "the
numbers", you've already been provided them in past threads where you
ignored them.

I'm still waiting on your reasoned response to how devices, the same
devices, one on a protected UPS segment, one on a non protected segment,
both powered from the same AC outlet, have the UPS device undamaged
while the unprotected device is damaged - and this has happened time and
time again at various locations around the country.

You keep saying that the devices provide their own means of protection
and that it has nothing to do with the UPS, but, simple fact is, the
EXACT SAME DEVICES ARE USED, the protected one isn't damaged, the
unprotected one IS DAMAGED. In the real world, it makes a good case for
having a quality UPS to provide surge protection and for the issues
associated with the normal power conditions that cause data
loss/corruption.

 

Anybody considered changing the subject line?

 

Done.

 

Good morning, Stew!

I'm sorry. What was the question?

Notan

 

Morning backatcha, chief.

I think it was the "whole house grounding thing" or the " whole ground beef
housing" issue.

I lost interest.


Stew

 

Works for me

 

Leythos again demonstrates the point. I cannot find those numbers
because those numbers do not exist. If they did exist, then he would
have provided numbers so many times this request has been made. And so
again, he tries to change the topic.

Plug-in manufacturer do not claim effective protection. Those who
insist otherwise must do everything possible to avoid facts; instead
hype subjective claims. No specification numbers from the manufacture
because plug-in power strips do not protect from typically destructive
transients. APC - that Leythos is always promoting - once published
this spec. Closest anyone has come to claiming any protection:

APC, like other plug-in protectors, now puts forth even less
information. They no longer list each type of transient. Notice, it
does not and did not claim to protect from another transient that
typically causes damage.

It is a shunt mode protector. It shunts (connects, diverts,
redirects) a destructive transient to earth. A shunt mode protector
called 'whole house' is effetive; has that earthing connection. A
protector made more effective when that earthing connection is even
shorter. The plug-in protector has all but no earthing connection.
No earth ground means no effective protection. So they don't even
claim protection in numerical specifications.

Again, don't take my word for it. Get that long list of numerical
specs - if you can even find it. Leythos does not provide
manufacturer numbers for effective protection. He cannot.

Those numbers do not exist. And then we define why those numbers do
not exist: no earthing connection. Meanwhile 'whole house' protectors
cost tens of times less money per protected appliance. Another
numerical spec.

 

I've clearly demonstrated that you can't explain how protected devices
remain undamaged while unprotected devices are damaged.

Why do you ignore that entire part?