OT: Winter Solstice--The Original & Still the BEST!

Discussion in 'Apple' started by Fred Moore, Dec 21, 2011.

  1. Fred Moore

    Fred Moore Guest

    12:30a, December 22, 2011 (summer solstice in southern hemisphere)

    Often copied but NEVER duplicated!

    Tree trimming, yule logs, holly wreaths, grog swilling, hearty singing,
    gift giving -- before A.D., almost before B.C.

    BTW, it's MID-winter, NOT the beginning of winter. Ask any astronomer.
     
    Fred Moore, Dec 21, 2011
    #1
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  2. Fred Moore

    Jim Janney Guest

    Hey, sun! Yeah, you, the big yellow guy!

    Come back, we miss you...
     
    Jim Janney, Dec 22, 2011
    #2
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  3. I'd rather ask a meteorologist! While days are now incrementally longer,
    it's trending colder for some time to come.....
     
    John McWilliams, Dec 22, 2011
    #3
  4. Fred Moore

    John Varela Guest

    Okay:

    http://www.weathernotebook.org/transcripts/1998/12/30.html
     
    John Varela, Dec 23, 2011
    #4
  5. Northern hemisphere meteorological winter begins December 1st.

    Since temperature trails insolation, the solstice isn't mid-winter using
    a definition based on temperature.
     
    Matthew Russotto, Dec 29, 2011
    #5
  6. Fred Moore

    Fred Moore Guest

    Hmm, never heard that definition before. Source please.
    Except that 'winter' is not a meteorological phenomenon. It is an
    astronomical one. Meteorology is a secondary manifestation/observation
    of a primary event.

    But, Happy New Year anyway! (speaking of arbitrary definitions)
     
    Fred Moore, Dec 29, 2011
    #6
  7. Fred Moore

    Davoud Guest

    Matthew Russotto:
    Fred Moore:
    I take it you think that Americans aren't sufficiently alienated from
    science and scientists, and that you want to increase people's level of
    alienation, rejection, and distrust by telling them that they don't
    know what winter is--only science knows what winter is.

    That's nonsense. I'm an astronomer and I know that 60F and environs
    throughout December, including Christmas day (Mid-Atlantic states) is
    not winter, and screw the ephemerides. Winter should have begun in late
    November or December but will probably begin in January and end in
    March--we'll have a short winter, in other words. I understand why the
    ephemerides demand that all seasons be of the same duration (within a
    day or two), but winter is a physiological and psychological
    phenomenon, not an astronomical phenomenon. To determine whether it is
    winter you must ask the birds and the bees and the flowers and the
    people. The vast majority of humans and all other flora and fauna do
    not know what an ephemeris is, yet they all know when it's winter.


    Winter may arrive here any day, indeed, at any minute, but it's not
    here as of 12:40:27 EST on 29 December, 2011.
    The evidence points to an arbitrary Universe. I have no problem with
    arbitrary definitions such as evidenced in human definitions but also
    in ephemerides and other scientific data. Why don't you go to Rio or
    Sydney or Capetown and try to convince people in those places that it's
    mid-winter!?
     
    Davoud, Dec 29, 2011
    #7
  8. Fred Moore

    Wes Groleau Guest

    Winter, autumn, and spring have all arrived _here_ several times each in
    the past six weeks.
     
    Wes Groleau, Dec 30, 2011
    #8
  9. Fred Moore

    Davoud Guest

    Davoud:
    Wes Groleau:
    Exactly. And so it goes. It was sunny and near 50F today--not winter
    yet. The forecast calls for mid-to-high 50's over the coming holiday
    weekend. It is unlikely that we'll escape without a winter, but each
    day that passes makes it a day shorter. No complaints so far. That,
    however, is what we said a couple of years back the day before our
    unprecedented four-day, two-meter snowfall.
     
    Davoud, Dec 30, 2011
    #9
  10. Fred Moore

    Fred Moore Guest

    Fred Moore:
    I take it you think that Americans aren't sufficiently alienated from
    science and scientists,[/QUOTE]

    Unfortunately, I don't have that power. Their bibles did that.
    Everyone is free to foster their own delusions. Again, unfortunately,
    they also think they have the right, nay, the duty, to inflict them on
    others. They don't; but they keep trying anyway.
    Oooo, Davoud, I love it when you talk all technical to me, especially in
    obscure plurals. I'll show you my perspicacity if you show me yours.
    Okay, you already did show me yours. I'll have to wait for the
    appropriate dramatic moment to reveal mine, if I don't trip over my
    perspicuity first. ;)
    \lunatic=ON\
    I dunno, Davoudie ole buddy, yur astartin ta soun like one a them commie
    pinko glow-bull warmin atheists! If Jesus wants usall ta stew in r own
    juices, that's devine wisdom! (not ta be confused with yur damn-fool
    per-spike-assity!)
    \lunatic=OFF\
    Autumn, or more appropriately 'the fall', began, for our current
    revolution (sic), in the early 1970s. Mid-winter coincided with Ronnie
    The Ray-Gun's inauguration. We've been in the thermal run-on decline
    ever since. Seems like Dismal February, but hard to be sure. Whether we
    make it to spring, is highly uncertain. All non-human life forms, are
    hiding deep in their burrows, cockroaches excepted.
    Well, random can certainly produce what might be considered arbitrary.
    However, arbitrary does imply unexpected deviation from a presumed
    direction. Scientifically, that direction seems to be, as yet, unknown,
    and likely unprovable in any circumstance.
    In previous posts to this thread, I did try to be suitably deferential
    to our southern hemisphere brothers and sisters. And, in fact, I did
    spend a perfectly delightful New Year's Eve on the Sydney Harbor Bridge
    once upon a time. In any event, I'll be happy to make the trip in June
    to ring in their astronomical new year. Just send me the air fare. :-D
     
    Fred Moore, Dec 30, 2011
    #10
  11. Fred Moore

    Fred Moore Guest

    Wes Groleau:
    Exactly. And so it goes. It was sunny and near 50F today--not winter
    yet. The forecast calls for mid-to-high 50's over the coming holiday
    weekend. It is unlikely that we'll escape without a winter, but each
    day that passes makes it a day shorter. No complaints so far. That,
    however, is what we said a couple of years back the day before our
    unprecedented four-day, two-meter snowfall.[/QUOTE]

    Variability is a principal gotcha for climatologists. The record high
    for Dec 28 for 40Nx83W was +68F; the record low -12F. Today's high will
    be +52F. We have had daffodils in January in recent memory. :\
     
    Fred Moore, Dec 30, 2011
    #11
  12. Fred Moore

    Tim Streater Guest

    Daffs should at least be pushing through then. And the snowdrops will be
    out.
     
    Tim Streater, Dec 30, 2011
    #12
  13. Fred Moore

    Fred Moore Guest

    Well, in our yard the snowdrops seem more resistant to being fooled
    although that may be because they are more in the shade and the
    daffodils are mostly in full sun.
     
    Fred Moore, Dec 30, 2011
    #13
  14. Fred Moore

    John Varela Guest

    John Varela, Dec 30, 2011
    #14
  15. Fred Moore

    John Varela Guest

    Variability is a principal gotcha for climatologists. The record high
    for Dec 28 for 40Nx83W was +68F; the record low -12F. Today's high will
    be +52F. We have had daffodils in January in recent memory. :\[/QUOTE]

    From April 2000 I have photos of my front yard in Northern Virginia
    showing the daffies blooming along with the azaleas and dogwoods,
    and the ground covered with snow.
     
    John Varela, Dec 30, 2011
    #15
  16. Fred Moore

    Fred Moore Guest

    Thanks for the link, John. Since the writer makes the mistake of
    claiming that _astronomical_ winter _starts_ on December 21 on what he
    mistakenly calls the 'winter' solstice, but astronomers call the
    *mid*-winter solstice, I must take anything else he says with a grain of
    salt.
     
    Fred Moore, Dec 31, 2011
    #16
  17. Fred Moore

    John Varela Guest

    He is right and you are wrong.
     
    John Varela, Dec 31, 2011
    #17
  18. Fred Moore

    Fred Moore Guest

    Then 99% of the astronomers on this planet are wrong too. Uh-huh.
     
    Fred Moore, Jan 1, 2012
    #18
  19. Fred Moore

    Patty Winter Guest

    [whole bunch of extraneous quotage deleted]


    Citation? Which astronomers?

    Not the ones at the US Naval Observatory:

    "The day with the least amount of daylight is the winter solstice,
    the first day of winter, around 21 December."

    http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astro...rmation-center/dark-days/?searchterm=solstice

    Nor the ones at the American Museum of Natural History:

    "Astronomer Joe Rao and colleagues will be celebrating the final night
    of the autumn season at the Hayden Planetarium Winter Solstice Party on
    Monday, December 20"

    http://www.amnh.org/calendar/event/Winter-Solstice-Telescope-Party/

    Nor the ones at the European Space Agency:

    "This image was captured by the orbiter's High-Resolution Stereo Camera
    on 17 May 2010 and shows part of the northern polar region of Mars during
    the summer solstice. The solstice is the longest day and the beginning
    of the summer for the planet's northern hemisphere."

    http://www.esa.int/esaMI/Mars_Express/SEMA4VITPQG_0.html

    So which astronomers exactly believe that solstices and equinoxes
    are not the beginnings of their respective seasons?


    Patty
     
    Patty Winter, Jan 1, 2012
    #19
  20. [various quotes elided]
    It isn't as though the definitions of the seasons are an astronomical
    matter anyway, so astronomers don't have any claim to specialist
    qualification in the matter. The solstices and equinoxes are directly
    astronomical matters; the definitions of the seasons are not.

    I'd also have to say that, even if one were to grant (which I don't take
    a position on either way, but even if one did grant it) that it was
    properly termed the "mid-winter solstice", anyone who tries to argue
    that the term "winter solstice" is wrong or different in any significant
    way is clearly just being deliberately argumentative. If one said
    "beginning-of-winter solstice", that would at least actually be
    different, but just "winter solstice" is an obvious and unambiguous
    shortened form in any case. It isn't as though one needs the extra
    modifier to distinguish between multiple soltices that occur at multiple
    times during the winter. My grain of salt would be reserved for someone
    who refers to the term "winter solstice" as a mistake.
     
    Richard Maine, Jan 1, 2012
    #20
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