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Re: Typical mains power for mid-range PC?

Discussion in 'AMD Overclocking' started by Jon D, Jul 28, 2006.

  1. Jon D

    Jon D Guest


    The above reminds me of hard drive hot spots because the Motor-IC
    gets referred to a few times.

    My question is simpler:

    If I have a hard drive which has a protective sheet of metal on one
    side and the circuit board on the other side then which of these two
    side should get the most cooling?
     
    Jon D, Jul 28, 2006
    #1
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  2. Jon D

    Rod Speed Guest

    Varys with the drive design. The only real way to answer that
    question is to try it both ways and monitor the drive SMART temp.
     
    Rod Speed, Jul 28, 2006
    #2
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  3. Jon D

    kony Guest


    NO, it does not vary per drive design, or rather, all drive
    designs are putting the board on the bottom, and a thin
    cover on the top, thus need more cooling on the bottom
    circuit board than (if any on) the top cover.

    In the majority of drives, the top cover is barely (if at
    all) even joined to the rest with a reasonably conductive
    junction, instead they typically have a silicone or some
    other type of flexible gasket. They may feel warm but this
    is more a function of heat rising because it wasn't removed
    more immediately from the hot areas instead of left to heat
    up surrounding areas.

    I'm sure you'll argue Rod, but you're quite wrong in general
    and offhand I don't recall any hard drive EVER MADE that
    needed as much, let alone more cooling on the top metal.

    In other words, a drive can be completely cooled with
    airflow over the bottom only. It cannot with airflow only
    over the top.
     
    kony, Jul 29, 2006
    #3
  4. Jon D

    Rod Speed Guest

    Fraid it does. Most obviously with the older Barras which
    have a metal plate and rubber mat over the logic card etc.
    Plenty of top covers arent thin.
    Not a fucking clue, as always. Plenty of drives still get
    rid of quite a bit of heat thru the metal body of the drive.
    Not a fucking clue, as always.
    Separate matter entirely.
    Have fun explaining how come that cover STILL gets
    warm even when the drive is mounted upside down.
    Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
    Have fun explaining those early Barras, child.
    Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have
    never ever had a fucking clue about anything at all, ever.
     
    Rod Speed, Jul 29, 2006
    #4
  5. Jon D

    kony Guest

    plate and rubber don't suddenly make a cover plate more
    conductive than it is, if you cool the area with longest
    conduction path and least tRise, you've let the rest get
    hotter than it otherwise would.
    On modern drives?
    Which ones?

    Bottom, yes. The top only gets hot as a function of how hot
    the interior was, because the bottom wasn't cooled enough,
    and of course a minor friction of platter/air inside the
    chamber but again, it is not only as well but better cooled
    by the bottom because the top is still secured by a gasket
    material which impedes heat transfer from other portions of
    the drive which likewise heat up.

    Rod, stop looking in the mirror.

    So sorry but wrong again.
    It is entirely applicable, heat conduction and removal
    depends on the thermal gradient, cooling of the hotter parts
    or at least those with best thermal junctions to the other
    areas needing cooled more than passively-without-sink.

    Because heat radiates on all directions, not just UP.
    Particularly so in a semi-sealed chamber the platters are
    in.

    However, if your drive is mounted in a case and the cover
    feels warm, you didn't have ample cooling on the circuit
    board side which was what I'd written in the first place.

    If your drive is sitting upside down on a desk, the desk
    would have to be a better thermal conductor than air for the
    temp of the adjacent cover to be cooler than any other part.


    It seems you always paste that line in when you already know
    you've goofed.

    There were other drives I ignored, some had the circuit
    board on the rear-top, but the same concept applied, that
    the side with the circuit board was still the one more
    important to cool (though chip densities being lower then,
    the airflow for the board was not as important).


    LOL.

    Funny how you can't even keep a drive cool, claiming it's
    "warm" then simultaneously ignoring those who manage to keep
    drives cool to the touch by ignoring your false advice.
     
    kony, Jul 30, 2006
    #5
  6. Jon D

    Ed Light Guest

    Kony:

    So, do you think drives would be better off upside-down, so the heat could
    rise off the bottom?

    If so, I just might flip mine.
    --
    Ed Light

    Smiley :-/
    MS Smiley :-\

    Send spam to the FTC at

    Thanks, robots.

    Bring the Troops Home:
    http://bringthemhomenow.org
     
    Ed Light, Jul 30, 2006
    #6
  7. Jon D

    kony Guest

    If you were trying to entirely, passively cool them, yes
    that should help, or even better is a sideways orientation
    so there is flow-by of the heated air instead of a shorter
    circular path.

    However, this is considered in isolation, once the drive is
    mounted in a chassis, that chassis should always have air
    intake, path on the far side of the drive (from the chassis
    exhaust point(s), meanting right in front of the drive rack)
    if not an intake fan before the drive rack. By having this
    airflow the difference between top or bottom drive side up
    is minimized, there is no hot air stagnating so they might
    as well be mounted bottom down. This is in general, certain
    positions and numbers of drives in particular drive racks
    might be slightly cooler one way or the other, with the goal
    being to put more of the airflow across the circuit board
    side of the drive, AND if possible to keep the intake air
    flowing within the drive rack.

    This last point is where a lot of cheaper chassis fail, they
    have drive racks sitting back from the front intake holes
    stamped in metal and nothing to force (or guide, however you
    want to consider it) the majority of the air to flow along
    the length of the drives. Quite a wasteful case design to
    save the manufacturer a few dozen cents? At least hard
    drives use solid capacitors, for all the brand bashing that
    goes on, they're built better than most other PC parts
    towards long term service... except those mechnical parts,
    pity we still need them.
     
    kony, Jul 30, 2006
    #7
  8. Jon D

    Rod Speed Guest

    It does however mean that the LOGIC CARD gets significantly less
    cooling from the airflow than with drives with exposed logic cards, child.
    Irrelevant waffle to that stupid pig ignorant claim that
    all drives are the same on that cooling question, child.
    Depends on how you define modern, child.
    Not a fucking clue, as always.
    Not a fucking clue, as always.

    And have fun explaining how come some drive manufacturers explicitly state
    that the drive temp limits apply to a specific location on the top cover, child.
    Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
    Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
    Nope, not when the top cover is only part
    of the metal structure of the drive, child.
    Wrong again, most obviously with significant airflow over the drive.
    Meaningless waffle with hard drives.
    Pathetic, really. It cant 'radiate' from the logic card
    thru the body of the drive, to the top cover, child.
    Pity about the platters, child.
    Wrong, as always. If you have ample cooling over
    the logic card, with the drive mounted with that on
    top, THE COVER WILL STILL BE WARM, child.
    Pity it was always pure pig ignorant drivel.

    In spades with those early Barras, child.
    I wasnt even considering the drive on the desk, child.
    Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
    Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
    Village eejut immitations aint gunna save your bacon, child.
    Fraid I can, child.
    Only a fool blows enough air over a drive so it isnt warm, child.
    Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

    AND it CANT be 'false advice' to try it both ways,
    you pathetic excuse for a lying bullshit artist.
     
    Rod Speed, Jul 30, 2006
    #8
  9. Jon D

    Ed Light Guest

    Kony,

    Thanks for the composition.

    Luckily my HD stays between 16C and 29C. It's up in a 5 1/4" bay, though,
    without great air flow.

    --
    Ed Light

    Smiley :-/
    MS Smiley :-\

    Send spam to the FTC at

    Thanks, robots.

    Bring the Troops Home:
    http://bringthemhomenow.org
     
    Ed Light, Jul 30, 2006
    #9
  10. Jon D

    kony Guest

    Yes clueless one, that makes the airflow over that area all
    the more important.

    Rod, what's with this "child" notion?
    I may easily be older than you.
    And more important, I don't have the need to BS my way out
    of a paper bag, a skill you seem to have thought you
    mastered.

    Is it a shock, now, that you are finding no way out of your
    bag?



    Ah, so you have nothing, just a black hole of knowledge.

    Didn't need a clue.
    Drives run cool here, unlike those you keep mentioning as
    warm or hot, every 3rd thread about HDDs. Did it ever occur
    to you that you might have no concept whatsoever about the
    most basic fundamentals of HDD cooling? Really Rod, it's
    not a hard thing... you argue that you know something and
    yet drives are warm, contrasted with the opposing strategy
    that results in cool drives. Seems almost ironic.


    Show us this spec Rod.
    You've made up so much BS recently I can't take anything you
    write at face value anymore.

    Oops, I deleted the rest of the post. Was it a loss or did
    you just write something about BS and paper bags a few dozen
    times?
     
    kony, Jul 30, 2006
    #10
  11. Jon D

    Rod Speed Guest

    No it doesnt, those drives clearly dont get rid of the heat from the logic that way.

    And have fun explaining why Seagate doesnt say that its crucial
    to have a high airflow rate over that side of those drives either.

    Keep desperately digging, you'll be out in china all over again any day now.
    Bet you aint, child.
    You clearly do.
    Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
    Corse you do.
    Never even mentioned hot, you silly little pathological liar.
    Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

    ALL it takes is to MEASURE the drive temp with the SMART temp, child.
    Only a fool furiously drives air over drives
    when their temp is below 40C child.
    Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
    How many of you are there between those ears, child ?

    http://www.hitachigst.com/tech/tech...27F35A86256F4F006B8AD4/$file/7K500_spv1.3.pdf
    http://www.hitachigst.com/tech/tech...F602DF86256E460065F563/$file/7K400_spv1.6.pdf
    Sec 7.2.1, first note, child.
    You'll find that with the bulk of their drives too.
    Got a VERY large towel handy for your face, have you child ?
    Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
     
    Rod Speed, Jul 30, 2006
    #11
  12. This is correct. ALL drives are made such that the platters and the
    "clean room" box they are in operate at a soaked temperature that is
    fairly warm to human touch. Most also keep their lid disconnected
    from the main body of the "platter box", thermally speaking. The heat
    that lid exhibits is 100% due to the air temp in the platter box.

    The exposed spindle driver/controller board on the bottom of the
    drive is what is supposed to be cooled, and that is why it is not
    "inside" the drive case. It is highly emissive due to the way chip
    maker package their chips in a matte finish package. It is so they
    can radiate their heat in a manner other than mere conduction through
    the lead frame.
     
    Phat Bytestard, Jul 30, 2006
    #12
  13. You are full of shit.

    Some drive makers place such things on their SPINDLE driver sections
    of their PCBs. Very few drives have multiple PCBs in them now (not
    including within the plater/head box), and both the spindle drivers as
    well as the CONTROLLER electronics are integrated together on that one
    board.

    There are plenty of drives, even the 10k RPM versions that have no
    sinking metals on this board at all. There are some that do.

    So it doesn't vary by design so much as by manufacturer. It is not
    required, and the bottom of the drive is STILL the place where cooling
    air currents should be directed.
     
    Phat Bytestard, Jul 30, 2006
    #13
  14. Now, you are a semantical twit.

    A 20 Ga stainless lid is quite stiff. but to someone used to heavier
    sheet steel calling it thin is NOT incorrect. For you to assume he
    meant foil thin is just more proof of how pedantic (and ignorantly so)
    you are.
     
    Phat Bytestard, Jul 30, 2006
    #14
  15. Drives exhibit heat on all their surfaces. The emissivity of the
    surface determines the degree to which they radiate. A shiny polished
    lid has a relatively low emissivity, and yes, surface finish does
    matter. That is why chips have matte finishes.

    I have drive mounts that do not have conduction paths for heat
    through them. The drives are cooled completely by air currents.
     
    Phat Bytestard, Jul 30, 2006
    #15
  16. You are full of shit. How many drives have you ever seen open?

    That won't matter because you are too fucking clueless to know what
    the engineers were doing when they designed the drive.
     
    Phat Bytestard, Jul 30, 2006
    #16
  17. Jon D

    Ed Light Guest

    Kony,

    Just filter him out! It's heaven.

    --
    Ed Light

    Smiley :-/
    MS Smiley :-\

    Send spam to the FTC at

    Thanks, robots.

    Bring the Troops Home:
    http://bringthemhomenow.org
     
    Ed Light, Jul 30, 2006
    #17
  18. Not when the subject is thermals, you fucking utter retard.
     
    Phat Bytestard, Jul 30, 2006
    #18
  19. You're an idiot.

    The air inside the platter box is virtually motion free, yet air has
    a pretty good conduction rate to surfaces it is against when it is hot
    air. The lid temp will not change much, if at all, regardless of the
    physical mounting configuration for the drive.

    That does not include using the lid as a conduction cooling element
    against a metal surface. We are talking about bare lids here.

    Squirm, you retarded twit.
     
    Phat Bytestard, Jul 30, 2006
    #19
  20. Do you always spew the same old tired CRAP to everyone that disagrees
    with you, boy?
     
    Phat Bytestard, Jul 30, 2006
    #20
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