Some Kudos for Dell

Discussion in 'Dell' started by Howard Nelson, Aug 10, 2005.

  1. Howard Nelson

    Leythos Guest

    When was the last time you saw a "good" salesperson at BestBuy or
    Circuit City or any other chain store? I've never met one.

    I have also never seen a warning document come with ISP service and not
    with the computers either. They can include a very nice, large, color,
    document on how to connect the cables, they could easily create a large
    RED/ORANGE document explaining security too.
    When the individual consumers impact the other consumers of the shared
    resource it's the responsibility of the ISP to control the problem - in
    the case of the ISP, if they would just enable NAT as the default in
    their devices, it would eliminate about 90%+ of the common security
    problems that ignorant users cause/experience. If someone knows enough
    to as for a NON-NAT config they are very likely to also know how to
    protect it.

    If NAT was the default, things like the Slammer worm would not have had
    much impact on the Net or users.
     
    Leythos, Aug 11, 2005
    #21
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  2. Howard Nelson

    Tom Scales Guest

    No offense, but your experience can only be your experience. There is no
    way that it is statistically valid nor can it be extrapolated to a general
    statement.

    Simple statistics.

    Tom
     
    Tom Scales, Aug 11, 2005
    #22
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  3. Howard Nelson

    S.Lewis Guest

    ::::::: golf clap:::::::::::::


    Gentlemen, gentlemen.............please.

    "Can't we all just get along?" (at 110mph after you've shot out my tires
    and I still refuse to stop because I'm holding.)


    Stew
     
    S.Lewis, Aug 11, 2005
    #23
  4. Howard Nelson

    Leythos Guest

    Stats are what you make of them, nothing more. If you have a small
    enough sample you can make them show anything you want. While you can
    ignore my experience if you want, having done work all over the U.S.
    with many types of clients, I can feel secure in stating that less than
    2% of the people that have Internet access even know about Usenet.

    You could also say that in your experience you don't have enough
    experience to know if I'm right or wrong, you could also say that with a
    wide range of experiences to sample from, that I could be right. You
    could also state your stats behind why you think by numbers are wrong -
    please enlighten us.
     
    Leythos, Aug 11, 2005
    #24
  5. Howard Nelson

    Tom Scales Guest

    Well, in my experience, 50% of the computer users in my household regularly
    use newsgroups. I guess if you count the cat, it drops to 40%, but he only
    uses the computer when he walks across the keyboard.

    Reminds me of The Onion.

    Just silly.
     
    Tom Scales, Aug 11, 2005
    #25
  6. Howard Nelson

    Ted Zieglar Guest

    Your cat reminds you of The Onion?

    [Just trying to finally kill off this thread.]
     
    Ted Zieglar, Aug 11, 2005
    #26
  7. nah, they probably got wind of the fact that if you come onto this
    newsgroup and air a genuine grievance, you get labelled as a "troll".
     
    Alex Flaherty, Aug 11, 2005
    #27
  8. Howard Nelson

    Steve W. Guest

     
    Steve W., Aug 11, 2005
    #28
  9. Howard Nelson

    Ben Myers Guest

    Okay. So continuing the automotive analogy, there are government-mandated
    recalls of cars for well-documented safety problems. Not sure I'd want anyone
    to issue a recall for an ISP, but the gaping security holes in the Windows
    operating system, especially now with Internet Explorer tightly integrated into
    the OS, cry out about the gross negligence of Microsoft in foisting off its
    shabby products onto the public. Windows does not kill, but it provides an
    extremely convenient platform for worms and trojans to embed themselves in a
    computer, to suck out passwords and other personal data, and to do serious
    financial harm to the owners of the computers by transmitting the data to
    thieves... Ben Myers
     
    Ben Myers, Aug 11, 2005
    #29
  10. Howard Nelson

    Leythos Guest

    There you go again, stop trying to find some analogy, since I had to
    have training in order to be permitted to drive, your analogy doesn't
    work.

    People get internet access all the time without ANY instructions - AOL,
    SBC, Road Runner, Earth Link, etc.... I know more than 200 users on
    those network and not one of them was told anything about security when
    they ordered or had the service installed.
     
    Leythos, Aug 11, 2005
    #30
  11. Howard Nelson

    Leythos Guest

    Sorry, now you're way off. You didn't buy a product from them. You are
    leasing time on THEIR network and you already agreed to ANY rules they
    want to make at any time - provided your using one of the big 1000 ISP's
    in the US.

    This ISP is responsible to its customers to ensure that your actions
    don't impact their use of the shared COMPANY network and to the
    community that your use doesn't impact the internet community.
     
    Leythos, Aug 11, 2005
    #31
  12. Howard Nelson

    Notan Guest

    Also, remember that 73.4% of statistics are made up.

    Notan
     
    Notan, Aug 11, 2005
    #32
  13. Howard Nelson

    Leythos Guest

    Ben, I hate to disagree, but, while Windows does allow users to be
    easily compromised, you can also easily configure it as a secure OS and
    have it run for years at a time without crashes.

    I've been installing Windows based workstations and servers for as long
    as they've been available and never had a single installation
    compromised while following our methods/rules. Microsoft even provides
    white-papers on how to setup and run a secure workstation/network for
    free.
     
    Leythos, Aug 11, 2005
    #33
  14. Howard Nelson

    Ben Myers Guest

    You and I can read the white papers, but the regular everyday consumer on the
    street often does not have access to them. Today, with the overwhelming push to
    consumer-oriented computers and essentially a market saturation of computers in
    businesses, probably 90% of the computers sold today are to the consumer. To
    make the OS as secure as possible Windows can be, new computers should come out
    of the box with everything locked down securely, with simple easy-to-explain
    steps for the non-geek to follow to make the tradeoff between more secure and
    more open in usage. All this, followed by the installation of some hardware (a
    router with NAT) and a plethora of non-Microsoft products to close up the holes.

    As long as my SOHO clients use the software and follow the rules I've set up for
    them (like not visiting porn, gambling, and free offer web sites), their systems
    do not get compromised either.

    And, of course, one can never mitigate the security issues caused by
    architectural deficiencies in Windows. Sorry, but Microsoft is negligent, plain
    and simple. Flame me, if you want... Ben Myers
     
    Ben Myers, Aug 11, 2005
    #34
  15. Howard Nelson

    Leythos Guest

    I agree with that, as long as we count consumers as people in small
    offices and your normal office worker in a business.
    I would love to see an option like Fedora gives when you install - where
    you can select something like "Home computer", "Server", "Workstation /
    Development system".... That would determine the security settings for
    the base system before they get a network connection.
    I think the NAT router is a must also, and every ISP should provide them
    to ANY home user if not just enabling them in the ISP's modem/router by
    default. As for the non-MS products, only AV software is really needed,
    the addition of a soft-firewall under user control is almost meaningless
    in normal user hands.
    I agree, but with a proper firewall, not just a NAT solution, you can
    actually filter the malicious content out of those types of sites too. I
    love being able block it in my home where I have a Watch Guard Firebox
    II (yea, old, but it works great) running Web Blocker and multiple HTTP
    filters based on authentication or IP in the network (some connections
    get no filtering, others get full filtering).
    I've no reason to flame you, we agree on it, just in a different light,
    sort of. I don't see the security problems as "architectural" problems,
    the problem was that MS didn't drop support for prior software when they
    came out with XP and that always leaves people with opportunities for
    exploiting the ease-of-connection that the OS offers. If XP were to have
    dropped ALL support for prior versions of software, required a secure
    design of software and abandoned the idea that it would run on older
    machines with those older apps, it would have been easier to secure it
    like Linux is.
     
    Leythos, Aug 11, 2005
    #35
  16. Howard Nelson

    Ben Myers Guest

    Indeed. Most of the computers I service in small offices were bought at
    Staples, Office Max, Circuit City, Walmart, or Dell (mostly low end Dimensions).
    Not exactly the type of reliable hardware that really oughta be in an office,
    except that I think the Dimension 2300-2350-2400 are of respectable quality for
    office use despite the slow on-board graphics. But you can't talk your
    customers out of an impulsive buy made when they are shopping for toothpaste
    (Walmart) or copying paper or a digital camera.

    There you go again. Stealing ideas. This time from Fedora and other Linux
    distros. How do you think Microsoft got started and has festered, er,
    prospered? Microsoft has grown by stealing ideas, by Borg-like assimilation of
    other companies, and by putting other companies out of business. Most any
    commercial or respectable open source Linux distro is a piece of cake to install
    compared to Windows, unless you happen to have some really really new or oddball
    hardware for which Linux drivers are not available on the distro CD (just like
    Windows).

    At least two soft firewalls provide coverage of OUTBOUND traffic without being a
    royal pain to the unsophisticated end user. Zone Alarm (Pro) has been around
    just about the longest time. And Norton's latest Internet Security has a
    comparable firewall. It takes me a few minutes to explain succinctly what a
    soft firewall can do to protect against unwanted outbound traffic, while
    allowing legit traffic to go through. Microsoft's firewall offering is lame
    because it fails to monitor outbound traffic, which should not normally be a
    problem in a fairly secure system. But then reality intervenes via IE, OCX,
    Visual Basic scripts, JavaScript and other executable code which comes to IE
    from the outside world, and BINGO! The system has a worm or trojan that wants
    to call home with your bank account number, logins to on-line services, and
    secret passwords.

    The architectural and design issues with Windows come about because Microsoft is
    hell-bent on integrating everything into the operating system. Well,
    "everything" might be a slight exaggeration. But browser, media player,
    messenger all hook themselves deeply into the OS, rather than running with
    fewer-than-OS priveleges. Thus, the integrity of the OS is compromised by the
    increased level of integration. It does not have to be that way. Firefox,
    GAIM, and several media player-type bits of software do not hook themselves into
    the OS. Dave Cutler certainly knew better when he led the DEC VMS development,
    and Jim Allchin knew quite a bit when he was at Banyan, but I think they have
    both prostituted themselves to the Microsoft marketing propeller heads. And
    don't ever get me started on the registry, a Rube Goldberg invention if there
    ever was one... Ben Myers
     
    Ben Myers, Aug 12, 2005
    #36
  17. Not to mention terrorists.
     
    Sparky Spartacus, Aug 12, 2005
    #37
  18. So it's purely subjective.
     
    Sparky Spartacus, Aug 12, 2005
    #38
  19. "Golf clap"?
     
    Sparky Spartacus, Aug 12, 2005
    #39
  20. Then say his cat reminds you of Hitler and he's a big Nazi!
     
    Sparky Spartacus, Aug 12, 2005
    #40
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