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Speeding up my T60 Thinkpad.. Is it possible to get an Solid StateDrive (SSD) for my T60 Thinkpad?

Discussion in 'Laptops' started by ship, Dec 1, 2009.

  1. ship

    ship Guest

    Hi

    Is it possible to get an Solid State Drive (SSD) for my T60 Thinkpad?
    I am looking at ways to speed the darned thing up!

    I couldnt find anything from Lenovo, but maybe someone else makes
    something... But I can see that some of the new Thinkpad models come
    with SSD instead of a conventional hard disk. So surely it's only a
    matter of time before Lenovo make something that fits into the ATA
    Hard Drive Bay Adapters? (...Or someone else makes them for the
    Thinkpad community!)

    (Obviously there are the external memory stick devices but they are of
    course limited by the USB 2.0 interface and are thus quite slow - so I
    am not interested in them.)



    Ship
    Shiperton Henethe

    P.S. Anyone know much faster a SSD is in practice compared to a HDD?
     
    ship, Dec 1, 2009
    #1
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  2. ship

    BillW50 Guest

    In
    ship typed on Tue, 1 Dec 2009 01:04:06 -0800 (PST):
    Yes you should be able to swap out any 2.5 inch hard drive for one of
    the many 2.5 inch SSD available by third parties. Depending on the speed
    of the SSD you purchase, you can typically increase your boot speed from
    10% to half of the normal boot time. Careful of purchasing one with a
    slow write speed.

    SSD vs HDD (youtube)
     
    BillW50, Dec 1, 2009
    #2
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  3. ship

    mike Guest

    Don't you have to have sufficient memory that you can turn off the swap file
    to keep windows from trashing the ssd in short order? Maybe other things
    like logging have to be turned off too. It's important NOT to write the
    drive any more than you have to.

    Bottom line, isn't it a lot more complex than just plugging in a SSD?
    mike
     
    mike, Dec 2, 2009
    #3
  4. ship

    BillW50 Guest

    In mike typed on Tue, 01 Dec 2009 17:08:12 -0800:
    Well that is true Mike. But some come with a lifetime warrantee and the
    MTBF rate is 227 years for SLC SSD. I do limit my writing by turning off
    the swapfile and use a RAMDisk, etc. But at the rate I am going with my
    five SSDs, it will take something like 8000 years before I rack up
    100,000 complete writes. So I don't think you really have to be that
    careful with avoiding writes. At least not with SLC types anyway.
     
    BillW50, Dec 2, 2009
    #4
  5. ship

    mike Guest

    That's my point. If you just plug the drive into a windows system not
    optimized for it and do nothing else, you might be disappointed.

    Been a long time since I looked at it, but..
    SSD drives are small >>>> most likely will stay nearly full.
    If the wear leveling algorithm doesn't move stuff, you have a wear problem.
    If the wear leveling algorithm moves a block of data almost every time
    you write it....there goes the speed advantage.

    I picked up an IDE to Compact Flash adapter, but decided not to wear out a
    perfectly good CF card for no good reason.

    There is a thing called windows embedded. Does that solve the problems?
    mike
     
    mike, Dec 2, 2009
    #5
  6. ship

    M.I.5¾ Guest

    Wear levelling doesn't move data around. Wear levelling is ensuring that a
    write always takes place to the least recently written block.
     
    M.I.5¾, Dec 2, 2009
    #6
  7. ship

    mike Guest

    Ok, let's try a simple thought experiment.
    Write one block on day 1. Call that block 1.
    Write all of the rest of the blocks on day 2.
    Erase some blocks on day 3.
    Now, it's day 4. You want to write a block of data.
    The least recently written block is block 1. But it has data
    in it. How do you write it without moving the existing data?
     
    mike, Dec 2, 2009
    #7
  8. Change "least recently written block" to "least recently written FREE
    block".
     
    Barry Watzman, Dec 2, 2009
    #8
  9. ship

    BillW50 Guest

    In mike typed on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 03:12:46 -0800:
    Hi Mike! I don't believe wear leveling works by one to one bases, but
    like it allows 50 or something more writes to the same area. Before it
    starts moving things around. And yes you are right, it does move things
    around at some point. Here is an example many more individuals might
    understand better.

    Let's say you have one GB free on a SSD and you fill it up with a movie
    everyday so you can watch it during your lunch break at work. And let's
    say for the sake of argument, the rest of the SSD is never written to.
    Well it is obvious that wear leveling won't allow this to continue
    forever. So at some point, it will swap out that very used 1GB area with
    another area which is never or hardly written to. Thus in the long run,
    writes all areas evenly in the long run.

    There are many other things to talk about later, like erase cycle and
    such. But just with the above example with a 4GB SSD, it would take over
    1000 years to wear out the SSD for 100,000 writes. And count wear
    leveling moving things around, even half that (which would be really
    extreme) would be still over 500 years.

    What I am saying is that even ignoring the limit of write cycles which
    are very large anyway. The MTBF from SSD is like 7 times longer than
    from hard drives. That means under normal use they will outlive hard
    drives by many times. You can try to burnout a SSD by overwriting it 24
    times a day and it would take over 11 years to do so. So I wouldn't
    worry about writing to the better SSD Mike.

    Another thing you might want to consider is once written, it should be
    rewritten every 10 years to retain the information. But if you are
    writing to it anyway, wear leveling should take care of the parts that
    are never normally written to anyway.

    And yes I do use part of Windows Embedded, called EWF. This will block
    all writes to a SSD and uses RAM to hold all writes. Much like a disk
    cache holding off on writing. And you can either dump all writes later,
    or commit the writes to allow changes to be saved. There are two reasons
    why I use EWF.

    1) To prolong the longevity of the SSDs

    2) Writing to RAM is much faster than writing to a hard drive or SSD

    The first point, I am convinced isn't a big problem. The second one,
    does seem to help performance a bit. And an added bonus is that a
    virus/malware can't last long if you deny writes to the drive. Thus when
    you power down, they are gone too. ;-)
     
    BillW50, Dec 3, 2009
    #9
  10. ship

    BillW50 Guest

    In mike typed on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 01:01:56 -0800:
    Hi Mike. I have been using SSD for two years now and I am a big believer
    in them so far. Some of mine I am actually trying to wear them out and
    they are holding up just fine.
    True, but I don't believe it works that way. As I seem to recall it
    allows dozens of writes to one area before it decides to shuffle things
    around a bit.
    While many worry about the limit of writes to a SSD. But here are some
    other things to consider.

    1) Floppy disks can only be written to less than a 1000 times. Worse
    they can't be read from too much longer than this.

    2) CD and DVD RW can only handle about 1000 rewrites.

    I never heard how many rewrites a hard drive can handle and we think of
    them as unlimited. Although I am not sure this is so. Maybe there is a
    limit to the amount of changes you can make to a hard drive too. It
    might not even take 100,000 rewrites for all we know. Thus SSD would be
    far more reliable than even HDD. As the MTBF seems to suggest SSD lasts
    7 times longer than HDD anyway.

    Now if it were me, I would be using that CF in that IDE adapter. As I
    don't think you could wear it out very fast. And if you did, it would be
    dozens of years from now anyway. By then, that CF card would be useless
    because there would be TB cards by then.
    Yes it does, but it isn't really necessary. Although there are plus
    sides to embedded, as for one viruses can't stick.
     
    BillW50, Dec 3, 2009
    #10
  11. Nope. Unless you're constantly going through several gigs of swap
    writing a day (which seems pretty unlikely to me), you don't really have
    to worry about it.

    That recommendation makes more sense if you're stuck with an SSD with one
    of the notoriously-bad JMicron controllers.
    Not really.

    Most modern, decent-quality MLC SSDs (such as those from Intel and the
    latest ones from Samsung and OCZ) have good wear-leveling algorithms,
    plenty of slack space, and decent NAND in them. Yes, writes are limited
    -- but it's unlikely that you're ever gonna run up against that limit
    without some serious effort.

    I've got an X-25M one of my laptops, and it would take something on the
    order of 5 years of writing 20GB each and every day before I'm likely to
    experience a failure.

    The key point when picking an SSD is not just to rush out and buy the
    first one with big, enticing numbers for its sequential read/write
    speed. The vast majority of desktop tasks issue small, random reads/
    writes, so it's important to get a drive that won't choke on those. When
    it comes to random IOPS, Intel makes the best drives out there, bar
    none. OCZ's got two decent drives: the Vertex (based on an Indillinx
    controller) and the Summit (which is basically just a re-badged Samsung
    drive.)

    I highly, highly recommend reading AnandTech's "The SSD Anthology" and
    "SSD Relapse" (links follow). They provide a wonderful, in-depth look at
    SSDs; by the end of both articles you'll have a solid understanding of
    what factors you should consider when picking an SSD (and, perhaps more
    importantly, which stats to ignore.)

    AnandTech "The SSD Anthology"
    http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3531

    AnandTech "The SSD Relapse: Understanding and Choosing the Best SSD"
    http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3631

    Hope this helps.

    -Rob
     
    Robert Tomsick, Dec 3, 2009
    #11
  12. ship

    BillW50 Guest

    In John Doue typed on Wed, 02 Dec 2009 09:30:50 +0200:
    Hi John. Yes they can be made either PATA (IDE) or SATA interfaces.
    Well the longer you wait, the cheaper SSD will be. ;-)
    gavotramdisk (free)
     
    BillW50, Dec 3, 2009
    #12
  13. ship

    mike Guest

    Ok, fill up the drive.
    erase one block...that's the one free block.
    Start an application that acquires a byte of data every millisecond
    and logs it to the hard drive in a circular buffer.

    My point is that leveling algorithms that work DO move data around.
     
    mike, Dec 3, 2009
    #13
  14. Re: "Floppy disks can only be written to less than a 1000 times"

    That is BS. First, there is no difference between reading and writing.
    Second, while you can wear the oxide off a floppy disk, keep in mind
    that back when we were using 8" floppies, the motors were AC line
    operated and NEVER stopped; a floppy could easly be "spinning" for 8
    solid hours. And while the head was not always loaded, once the head
    does load, it contacts all sectors on that track, even if only one of
    them is being accessed. If wear was a serious issue, they would not
    have lasted as long as they did (years and decades; most 8" floppy
    diskettes written in the 1970's are still readable, far over 95%). I'm
    not saying that they could be "worn out", but the statement that "Floppy
    disks can only be written to less than a 1000 times" is just not
    generally true.
     
    Barry Watzman, Dec 3, 2009
    #14
  15. ship

    M.I.5¾ Guest

    Data is moved into a temporary buffer, modified and written back.

    Simples :-x
     
    M.I.5¾, Dec 3, 2009
    #15
  16. ship

    M.I.5¾ Guest

    Actually prior to that time the head was permanently loaded and generally
    didn't move from where it last performed a read/write. Some systems that
    used 5½ inch floppies behaved the same way and they never seemed to suffer
    with worn out discs either.
     
    M.I.5¾, Dec 3, 2009
    #16
  17. ship

    mike Guest

    Ok, do that 100,000 times.
    If it is written back to the same place it's not wear leveled.
    And it takes just as long as if it were moved somewhere else.
    If it isn't written back to the same place, then the data is moved.
    You can't have it both ways.
    I agree with that. You're trying to make it simpler than it is.
     
    mike, Dec 3, 2009
    #17
  18. ship

    BillW50 Guest

    Actually I have tons of experience with older system which boot from a
    floppy drive. And on these systems, once booted, the floppy was usually
    removed. So they are generally used once per day and they would last on
    average, 6 months to a year. Then they had to be replaced.

    The less than 1000 write figure is something I got from the manufactures
    specs on floppies back in the 90's. And I was shocked the number of
    rewrites were so low, like less than 700.

    And yes I remember the old 8 inch drives never stopped spinning. We
    often popped the door when the floppy wasn't in use. That was to prolong
    the life of the floppy. Boy things have really changed since then. lol
     
    BillW50, Dec 3, 2009
    #18
  19. ship

    BillW50 Guest

    Hello John! Well my 6 SSD use Samsung SSD. The third character of the
    chip number denotes whether it is a SLC or a MLC type. Four of mine are
    SLC with two being MLC types. Including this one running Linux.

    Samsung Flash Part Decoder.pdf

    Intel is supposedly having the best in the business if this helps at all.
     
    BillW50, Dec 3, 2009
    #19
  20. 8" drives ran the motor (spun the diskette) constantly but loaded and
    unloaded the head against the media.

    5.25" drives kept the head loaded constantly, but stopped and started
    the drive motor.
     
    Barry Watzman, Dec 3, 2009
    #20
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