System Failure - CPU Task

Discussion in 'Asus' started by JRS, Nov 3, 2005.

  1. JRS

    JRS Guest

    I have an AMD 3000 on a K8VSE deluxe and it just flickered as if the power
    was going and it then started talking to me giving the message in the
    subject line. or I think that's what it said!

    Never done it before and I've had it 18 months. Seems fine now I've
    rebooted.

    Am i doomed!
     
    JRS, Nov 3, 2005
    #1
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  2. JRS

    Mercury Guest

    Could it have been the power?
    You could instal MBM5 and use its PSU voltage logging ability to see if you
    are getting spikes / brownouts.
    UPS are dead checp these days - perhaps consider getting a true - online
    UPS. The real cheap ups will not protect you against mains power glitches, a
    true online one will since they run off battery all the time.

    So, it could be the mains power or the PSU in your system - this is assuming
    the screen (?) flicker was caused by power and not the system.
     
    Mercury, Nov 3, 2005
    #2
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  3. JRS

    w_tom Guest

    A power supply, properly constructed, must provide DC
    voltage unaltered even when AC mains goes so low that
    incandescent bulbs dim to less than 40%. This even stated in
    Intel ATX power supply specs.

    Furthermore, it makes no difference whether the UPS is
    'online' type or other type. Again, even Intel specs say
    why. And that is the point. Too many will post user myths
    rather than first learn how the equipment works.

    What could have caused the OP's original problem?
    Information provides is woefully too inadequate for any
    responsible reply. Without an exact quote of computer
    messages, then no one can answer the original question without
    doing wild speculation. Even worse is the UPS reply which is
    totally unjustified speculation; not based in technology
    knowledge.

    Even the MBM5 recommendation makes claims that are
    technically false. Again, AC mains voltage must drop as
    defined above and still MBM5 numbers would not change. This
    assumes the power supply was properly constructed; a problem
    with many clone computers. Spikes would never be recorded.
    All this obvious when one has minimal hardware and electrical
    knowledge.
     
    w_tom, Nov 4, 2005
    #3
  4. JRS

    Mercury Guest

    The OP has given a sketchy description. However food for thought often leads
    to using appropriate terminology and gaining feedback that drills down to
    the fault. Are you unfamiliar with conversation perhaps?

    How do you know the PSU is correctly constructed and operating? You don't,
    nor do I and with the dominance in the market of marginal PSU it is a
    reasonable place to check.

    The PSU could be faulty, it could be producing diminishing voltages due to
    aging capacitors or have developed some other fault. The PSU may have been
    marginal from day 1, may never have adhered to specifications, and may not
    behave per specs with low mains voltage. Or, it may have been near 100% to
    spec originally and have developed a fault... It may not be the source of
    the fault at all, the mains could be, or the OP could have described things
    in a misleading manner, so get off your high horse and contribute something
    positive.

    The mains may be marginal: There may be power fails lasting from a few ms to
    longer - enough to trip the PSU even if the PSU were on spec and is supposed
    to handle it.

    Plotting voltages from MBM 5 is not always conclusive - out of tolerance
    voltages are however an indicator that there is something away from the
    ideal, and possibly of a degrading PSU. If the PSU has degraded then the
    likelihood of power related issues increases, so MBM 5 can be helpful, so
    could sung a DVM or a plotting device on the mains, or a lab...

    PSU's do fail. They do age.

    Mains can do all sorts of wonderful things. Here, the power can fail 6 times
    in a day - 4 out of those six times may be so brief that they are
    inconsequential, and other times it can go off for hours. The power is here
    crappy, but the true online UPS I have is good (1100va) and hooked up
    correctly.

    So excuse me for talking about reality. People don't live in testing labs,
    they consume made products which are sometimes marginal, and have to use
    them on mains that is sometimes also a problem.

    My responses are not intended as a conclusive answer, they can't be, but as
    food for thought and from that thought further information and hopefully an
    answer.

    How would you describe your answer? Helpful? Shit stirring?

    "Furthermore, it makes no difference whether the UPS is 'online' type or
    other type. ". Crap.

    whooppee, so you are saying all PSU's are made this well and they always
    work this well and never fail or become marginal? Are you also saying that
    the only mans issues that occur are voltage slumps? Dream on.
    Crap. You obvously don't work in the real world where
    a) some UPS have horrendously slow switching times so kill computers - this
    is more likely with a dicky PSU.
    b) we've been down this track before -UPS with spike filters and your own
    misinformed ideas here. So you just believe the crap you believe ok?
    c) computers aren't the only things thatgetplugged into UPS.
    Are you accusing me of propagating a myth? If so what? Please give exact
    details and explain why a dicky PSU has nothing to do with things?
    It could be better, but the OP may not have the tools or experience to
    provide the evidence. Would you prefer this post to be totally ignored until
    the OP has provided 100% evidence? Lazy shit.
    The OP gave 2 quite indicative details of the fault.
    Really? The OP described 2 things that happened. In this case some
    speculation is necessary - in the understanding that the OP may reveal more
    info, or that testing leads down a different path.
    What false claims? If the voltages read by MBM 5 (installed correctly)
    indicate low / high / and fluctuatiung voltages then this does indicate a
    problem. If the voltages are wobbly or out of spec then does this indicate a
    problem? No according to you.
    That will be the case if the PSU has no fault and the mains voltage only
    drops dill brain. Do you know how a switching PSU works? Do you know what a
    capacitor is? It appears not.
    Utter crap - you are lagging in the logic area. Tell me, if MBM5 said that
    12v was 11.1v and was fluctuating visibly +- 0.3v, that means nothing to
    you? Would you get a DVM out to see if MBM5 was showinf the correct mean
    voltage? If you had an oscilliscope what would you do?

    You are the only one that has been operating from the perspective that the
    PSU is 100%, 100% of the time. What is a Clone PSU anyway? PP&C? Antec
    (made in Taiwan you know), Task? Or does it have to be IBM? Everytime I hear
    someone say Clone I hear "I'm a totally pig ignorant fellow that knows so
    little and is gullible so believe IBM advertising and that no one can make a
    computer better than them and that it is the only computer to get".
    Fortunately, for those of us in the know, that belief couldn't be further
    from the truth. "Clone" = "Ignorance".

    Spikes won't be recorded if they are short, but a marginal PS will often be
    apparent.
     
    Mercury, Nov 4, 2005
    #4
  5. Your statement about UPS systems is totally wrong. They can make a huge
    difference. If the power coming into the building is noisy or marginal
    and the UPS uses this "junk" power to recharge a group of batteries that
    then provide the power to the computer it can be the difference between
    a working system and a costly paperweight. And this is not conjecture,
    but experience.
     
    Michael W. Ryder, Nov 4, 2005
    #5
  6. JRS

    w_tom Guest

    Learn what plug-in UPSes do before recommending them. The
    typical UPS connects AC power directly to computer when not in
    battery backup mode. Directly as in AC mains noise goes
    directly to computer. The noisiest power is delivered by UPS
    when in battery backup mode. Of course, greatest noise from
    UPS is not a computer problem. Computer power supply contains
    functions that make irrelevant this large UPS noise as well as
    smaller noise from AC mains.

    The 'junk' power is worst when a computer grade UPS is in
    battery backup mode. 'Junk' made totally irrelevant by how
    power supply is designed. 'Junk' power was irrelevant to
    power supply operation even 30 years ago. One should have
    known this, an industry standard, that old and that well
    understood.
     
    w_tom, Nov 4, 2005
    #6
  7. JRS

    w_tom Guest

    We don't know if power supply is properly constructed which
    is why a minimally sufficient supply is sold with a long list
    of numerical specs. No such written (numerical) claim
    suggests a power supply - that appears to work just fine for
    months - was actually defective when designed.

    The OP asked if he was doomed. Well, is power supply
    minimally sufficient? Where are the page long list of
    numerical specifications? No specs, then suspect the worst.

    But this still does not answer the OPs question. Even if
    the power supply was defective, MBM5 readings would tell him
    nothing useful ... without first having calibrated those
    reading with a 3.5 digit multimeter. Furthermore, MBM5
    readings will not record spikes nor AC mains brownouts. It is
    a monitor that can report slow voltage changes. To determine
    proper power supply voltages, first those MBM5 readings must
    be calibrated with a meter. The meter could report symptoms
    of an 'aging' power supply (ie diminishing voltages or
    excessive ripple) - an upcoming weakness that is not yet
    caused complete computer failure. A weakness that the
    multimeter can identify but the MBM5 software cannot (without
    first using the meter).

    Properly noted is a clone computer market chock full of
    marginal supplies. So many 'computer assemblers' don't even
    know how electricity works. First symptom of an inferior
    supply is manufacturer does not even claim to provide
    essential functions. If manufacturer did not provide a long
    list of numerical specifications, then some functions are
    probably missing. Second symptom is a supply selling for less
    than $65 full retail. Computer assemblers too often only buy
    on two numbers - price and watts. Those other essential
    functions be damned.

    Can an AC mains loss of only a few ms cause power failure?
    No. That is also specifically stated in the standards. A UPS
    that typically takes 10+ milliseconds to switch from or too
    battery backup does not crash computers. Computers can
    tolerate short millisecond power losses. If not, even a UPS
    switchover would crash a computer. Just another power supply
    function IF power supply was built by a responsible
    manufacturer who provides numerical specifications.

    If power is crappy, then does a online UPS provide benefits
    that the standby UPS does not? Yes. But then it better since
    an online UPS costs about five times more money. Meanwhile,
    those on-line UPS advantages are totally lost on a computer.
    Computer power supply standards even 30 years ago makes those
    benefits irrelevant.

    Is the power supply insufficient? Another good indicator is
    the price. A power supply selling for less than $65 full
    retail typically is missing essential functions. It provides
    just enough functions so that the 'computer assembler' feels
    it is good - because it still works six months later.
    Furthermore, $65 for a power supply does not guarantee a good
    power supply. The reverse logic is not true. A power supply
    selling for less must forget essential functions. A power
    supply selling for more need not contain essential functions.
    Just another reason why those numerical specs are important.

    How do I describe my answer here and previous? Right on the
    money. MBM5 to measure a defective power supply is bogus.
    Obviously bogus because motherboard monitors are not
    sufficiently calibrated. Called a "monitor" to detect voltage
    changes; not measure voltage levels. To determine power
    supply integrity, one must measure voltage levels - the 3.5
    digit multimeter. Furthermore, noisy AC mains power does not
    adversely affect a properly constructed computer nor is it
    eliminated by a typical plug-in UPS. Either computer has
    sufficient noisy power to keep running, or computer no longer
    gets a Power Good signal - shuts down. Power is fully
    sufficient or fully insufficient - according to computer.
    This another function of the power supply system.

    Information as posted earlier answers the OP's question.
    Provided earlier were even AC mains standards. Power supply
    must work just fine - not even indicate low voltage in MBM5 -
    when incandescent bulbs are at 40% intensity. MBM5 could
    report a defective supply that did not maintain voltage. But
    then the computer would crash so that MBM5 could not be read.
    Neither on-line UPS nor MBM5 provide useful assistance nor
    useful information - as was stated previously. The power tool
    for such analysis is a 3.5 digit multimeter.
     
    w_tom, Nov 4, 2005
    #7
  8. Where in my post did I say I was talking about a "typical" UPS? The
    post you first responded to was about an On-line UPS, that is, one that
    only uses line power to recharge the batteries, and then uses the
    batteries to power the converters that provide the power to the
    equipment. The only noise output from one of these is in the conversion
    of the DC power to a sine wave type output, in other words, nothing
    compared to the noise you can get from regular mains power.

    What??? A computer grade UPS output is far cleaner than the output from
    the main power lines. You don't have the ups and downs of the power
    along with the various ripples induced by turning on and off large
    pieces of equipment or faulty lines. Nor do you have to worry about the
    power going off, then on, then off, then ... This will kill almost any
    equipment, including computer power supplies. Yes, a good, that is
    expensive, power supply may filter out most of the "junk" that comes
    into it, but that junk also stresses the components, lowering their life
    expectancy. It is much better to start with "clean" power from a good
    on-line UPS.
     
    Michael W. Ryder, Nov 4, 2005
    #8
  9. JRS

    w_tom Guest

    Michael is talking about a $500 UPS. Most are only using
    $100 standby UPSes. An on-line UPS that costs five times more
    provides nothing useful to a computer.

    Meanwhile what is the THD for that UPS? Is it a modified or
    true sine wave? Words that mean nothing without the THD
    number. Some modified sine wave UPSes output so much noise as
    to even be destructive to some small electric motors and power
    strip protectors. Still that high noise UPS is completely
    irrelevant to a computer whose internal protection makes that
    noise totally irrelevant. And so it is called computer grade.

    No, a computer grade UPS is not cleanest because computer
    power supplies are so resilient. But again, I will do what
    Michael W Ryder does not. I will provide numbers. For
    example, this computer grade UPS outputs two 200 volts square
    waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square
    waves. That is clean 120 volts? Yep. The manufacturer calls
    those square waves and spike a 'modified sine wave'. And he
    is correct. It is a modified sine wave. Basic 60 Hz 120 volt
    sine wave is inside all that other noise. Electricity from a
    computer grade UPS not clean enough for some appliances and
    yet more than sufficient for a computer.

    Those educated in retail store rumors may believe "A
    computer grade UPS output is far cleaner than the output from
    the main power lines." If true, then Michael can cite
    numerical specifications. Michael makes his claims without
    citing important numbers such as THD.

    That trend underlies all my posts here. Those who post
    urban myths will routinely avoid the numbers and technical
    facts. Where are the numerical specifications from the UPS he
    recommends? We have yet to see any numbers in his
    recommendations. Exactly what propagandists do. Hype a
    myth. Never provide relevant numbers nor underlying 'whys'.

    Another myth is that "Nor do you have to worry about the
    power going off, then on, then off, then ...". If one has to
    worry about this, then one purchased defective equipment. If
    cycling occurs too fast or too often, a computer's power
    supply controller locks out the power supply. Again, no
    problem. But then we have myths without first learning
    functions inside a power supply system. Again, an example of
    those who just know without first learning underlying
    principles.

    This knowledge shortage among 'computer assemblers' is why
    so many recommend a UPS for anything other than data
    protection from blackouts and brownouts. That is what a
    plug-in UPS does - not to be confused with serious building
    wide UPSes that accomplish more. The plug-in UPS does not
    filter noise. It is for data protection from blackouts and
    brownouts.

    Many who fail to post manufacturer spec numbers will make
    subjective claims anyway. This is why UPSes are widely
    recommended for other problems such as noise - recommended
    without first learning facts and underlying principles.

    A perfect example is Michael's claim that "A computer grade
    UPS output is far cleaner than the output from the main power
    lines." If true, then power strip protectors would be OK in
    UPS outputs. Manufacturers quietly caution to not connect
    power strip protectors in a computer grade UPS. Computer
    grade UPS in battery backup mode is some of the dirtiest
    electricity. No problem because computer power supplies
    already contain functions that make that and other noise
    irrelevant.

    Michael, a little suggestion. I have been doing this stuff
    for a few generations - including a term working with and
    designing power supplies. IOW I have a degree or two. The
    typical computer grade UPS does not work as you have assumed.
    Yes - assumed. Consult manufacturer spec numbers if you can
    find that full page plus. Manufacturers don't like these
    numbers widely distributed. No numbers makes it easier for
    myth purveyors to hype unchallenged. But I am challenging -
    and bluntly. If you are so sure otherwise, well, let's see a
    URL with those manufacturer's numbers. You did first learn
    the numbers? Good. Let's see them.

    For those looking for noise protection, the topic was
    discussed on 28 Oct 2005 in the newsgroup aus.hi-fi
    entitled "UPS any use?" Provided were solutions for noise
    filtering.
     
    w_tom, Nov 5, 2005
    #9
  10. This is all too true.. I've said it before - a power supply is not the
    place to cheap out on components when building a system. A cheap or
    insufficient power supply will give you no end of trouble. Stick to
    either major brands (Antec, Enermax, Vantec, etc.) or smaller companies
    which are known to produce decent products (Sparkle, etc.)
     
    Robert Hancock, Nov 6, 2005
    #10
  11. Well, it may be cleaner when running off of AC power in the same way
    that the power from a power-strip protector may be cleaner - but the UPS
    provides no advantage over a normal surge protector in that respect.

    And aside from large power surges which both a surge protector and UPS
    should filter out, the remaining noise isn't really important to a
    computer. The only real case where one might want to be paranoid about
    noise is with audio equipment, to prevent that noise from possibly
    getting into the audio (but even then, if it does that equipment
    probably needs some more filtering internally).

    Monster Cable likes to have these demo setups at stores which have a box
    that lets you hear all the "evil" noise on the power line that their
    protectors filter out.. but of course if one needs noise filtering one
    can get it at a lower price than their products..
     
    Robert Hancock, Nov 6, 2005
    #11
  12. JRS

    w_tom Guest

    No significant filtering exists in these plug-in protectors
    - even from surges. They are called shunt mode devices.
    Active components connect in 'parallel' to electronics just
    like a light bulb. To filter, active components must connect
    in 'series'. They are not in series. They are shunt mode
    devices - in parallel.

    Pictures even demonstrate what happens when active
    components are removed from a plug-in protector. Even the OK
    indicator remains, claiming the protector provides protection
    after active components (MOVs) are removed:
    http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html

    That is a problem with plug-in protectors. They really
    don't provide, nor do they even claim, to protect from
    typically destructive surges - or from noise. Solutions to
    noise filtering were cited above and posted in the newsgroup
    aus.hi-fi .
     
    w_tom, Nov 6, 2005
    #12
  13. Zero Surge, being a company that provides inductive-type surge
    suppressors, has a rather vested interest in discrediting MOV-based
    protectors. Cutting the MOVs out is not a fair test since that is not
    how the protection light works - it's based on a fuse that's designed to
    blow when the MOVs reach their protection limit and short across the line.
    Well, I believe Underwriters Laboratories would be inclined to disagree..
     
    Robert Hancock, Nov 9, 2005
    #13
  14. JRS

    w_tom Guest

    UL does not claim nor is it their job to claim that any
    protector protects. UL1449 test permits the protector
    completely fail - provide no protection - and still get a
    UL1449 approval. Why? Even a failed protector does not kill
    humans. Human safety is what Underwriters Laboratories
    tests. But to get humans to 'wish' that UL approval means the
    protector is effective, well again, we demonstrate another
    myth that plug-in protectors hope you create. They hope you
    will assume a UL rating means the protector does something
    effective. They hope you will promote myths.

    It does not matter whether transistors are protected or
    not. It does not matter that the protector is so grossly
    undersized as to vaporize during a surge. Only that human
    life is not endangered. Those with insufficient technical
    knowledge may tend to hope otherwise - to think a protector
    with a UL rating does something effective.

    Another approval is C62.41. It also says the protector does
    something? No. ANSI C62.41-1991 is a test waveform. When
    does a test waveform mean a protector is effective? It also
    does not. But the number looks so official! The naive will
    assume this ANSI standard also means a protectors does
    something useful. More myths promoted by insufficient
    technical knowledge. Myths are how plug-in protector are
    promoted.

    That is a problem with plug-in protectors. They really
    don't provide, nor do they even claim, to protect from
    typically destructive surges - or from noise.

    Meanwhile, what Zerosurge demonstrates can be performed by
    anyone here. Zerosurge forgets to mention is that even their
    protector can be overwhelmed if the essential earthing and
    'whole house' protector - shunt mode protection - is not
    installed. But that is irrelevant here. The point is about
    plug-in protectors being ineffective; not providing effective
    filtering.

    How can active components in a plug-in protector act as
    series mode filters when those components are removed - and
    still electricity is delivered to the appliance? Some plug-in
    protectors provide filtering - that is so trivial as to be
    zero. Still, that is enough to claim filtering to those who
    don't first demand numbers. Zerosurge demonstrates that the
    active components in a plug-in protector do not sit between
    the noise source and appliance - as so many here would want
    to believe.

    Many want to believe noise filtering in plug-in protectors
    as they would also believe that UL rates the effectiveness of
    plug-in protectors. UL does not care whether the protector
    works. No effective noise filtering exists in plug-in, shunt
    mode protectors.

    Meanwhile, just another problem with so many plug-in
    protectors:

    http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge Protectors.pdf
    http://www.rbs2.com/fire.htm
    http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
    http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm

    Where would you put something pictured above? On a carpet?
    Behind furniture? On a desk full of papers? Forget about
    noise filtering. There are other, more serious problems with
    some plug-in protectors.
     
    w_tom, Nov 9, 2005
    #14
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