Tiger: Installation without DVD drive

Discussion in 'Apple' started by Felix Steiner, Aug 27, 2004.

  1. hi all

    i have a g3 ibook (cd-rom) standing here i wanted to install mac os x
    10.4 tiger onto.
    because there is no dvd drive in it, i think there are two possible
    solutions:
    1) to use netinstall. i have just one mac here, so i installed
    tftpboot (a simple dhcp and a tftp server) on my win2k-pc, made a new
    disk-image (.dmg, since i can't copy all files from the dvd to the
    win2k-machine because of information loss) from my dvd, connected the
    two computers and tried to boot from network pressing "n". however:
    the booting mac was recognized by the pc but abandonned shortly after
    it was discovered; i wasn't able to find any more information.

    2) to use a firewire-drive to boot from. i took my 3g 20 gig ipod,
    formatted it with disk utility (mac extended, journaled) and copied
    the whole dvd with "carbon copy cloner" to the now empty ipod named
    "booty". i could start the "Mac OS X installer" in the "welcome..."
    directory, click "restart" -- and it restarted. it even booted, first
    there was a white screen, then the same screen with the apple,
    followed by the little blinking circle right under it, then there was
    a blue screen with the same ring -- and then it crashed. i can't
    reproduce this error at all, but i remarked: carbon copy cloner
    doesn't seem to copy all files, and if it does, then not all are
    displayed (e.g. there was no "mach kernel" in the root folder on the
    ipod, only the link to it).

    are there any files i could post here to give you a brighter look at
    this? i think it will be an actual topic as soon as tiger will be
    published for all the folks not having a dvd drive in their machines.

    thanks for every advice!
    Felix Steiner
     
    Felix Steiner, Aug 27, 2004
    #1
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  2. Felix Steiner

    Davoud Guest

    Felix Steiner:
    It is to laugh! You're asking me to help you a) steal software and b)
    steal proprietary information that belongs to Apple computer.

    I wouldn't normally respond to such a request, but I'm making an
    exception, just for you.

    1) Go to a computer retailer and shoplift a DVD drive.

    2) You can probably figure out the rest.

    Davoud
     
    Davoud, Aug 28, 2004
    #2
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  3. It is to laugh! You're asking me to help you a) steal software and b)
    I'm sorry for your inconvenience, but what you say is not right. Not
    everybody asking questions about tiger has to possess an illegal copy,
    where ever it may come from. You certainly heard of the ADC. ADC
    members sometimes fly to the WWDC. And they too get LEGAL copies. If I
    was you and as long as the ADC exists I would think about the
    possibility of being a member and not just p*ss off somebody ignoring
    the facts.

    I do possess tiger legally. Why did I ask such a stupid question then?
    Because not every developer loves to do admin tasks and not every
    developer knows to do them very well -- his task is to play with
    things, not to install them. So it didn't seem to be wrong to me to
    ask the public about what it already knows instead of going to the ADC
    forum.

    Somehow I'm sorry for that.
    F. Steiner
     
    Felix Steiner, Aug 28, 2004
    #3
  4. Felix Steiner

    Davoud Guest

    Felix Steiner:
    So, to summarize, you are a Mac software developer who uses an iMac
    that is 10 or so generations from currency; who doesn't own a DVD
    drive; and who somehow manages to "play with things" (which I suppose
    is developer talk for "test and evaluate with the intent of improving
    et al") without knowing how to install the software that you are
    testing and evaluating. Please let me know what software you are
    developing so that I can be sure to avoid it.

    Davoud
     
    Davoud, Aug 28, 2004
    #4
  5. Felix Steiner

    Tim McNamara Guest

    I'm always amazed at how judgmental people in the Mac groups are, and
    how many of them seem to enjoy being obstructionistic and a general
    pain in the ass. They bitch you out for one thing, and when it turns
    out that wasn't correct, they cast about for something else to bitch
    the person out about.
     
    Tim McNamara, Aug 28, 2004
    #5
  6. I'm always amazed at how judgmental people in the Mac groups are, and
    how many of them seem to enjoy being obstructionistic and a general
    pain in the ass. They bitch you out for one thing, and when it turns
    out that wasn't correct, they cast about for something else to bitch
    the person out about.[/QUOTE]

    So you approve of people violating NDAs?
     
    Michelle Steiner, Aug 28, 2004
    #6
  7. Felix Steiner

    Davoud Guest

    JonesR:
    You are either possessed of a vivid imagination, or delusional.

    I would be unlikely to "admit" such a thing, because I do not have a
    copy of Tiger -- legal or stolen -- or any other stolen software, for
    that matter. I am authorized to tell you, however, that I have seen
    Tiger running -- in a very brief, authorized demonstration by an
    employee of Apple Computer, Inc.

    I might add that even if I were a software thief, I would be unlikely
    to have a copy of Tiger running. I am not a computer hobbyist; I use my
    Macs for work, and I don't run beta or other unreleased software except
    on some occasions when I am specifically requested to do so by the
    developer of that software. And I abide by my NDA's, so further
    questions on this subject will likely be of no avail.

    Davoud
     
    Davoud, Aug 28, 2004
    #7
  8. Felix Steiner

    Tim McNamara Guest

    So you approve of people violating NDAs?[/QUOTE]

    I don't know that the OP has such an agreement, since he hasn't said
    he does as far as I've seen his posts. I prefer not to leap to the
    conclusion that he's an evil software pirate, something many in the
    Mac newsgroups are prone to doing.

    He asked if it's possible to install Tiger without a DVD drive.
    That's actually an interesting question because the answer will
    determine whether or not I buy Tiger when it becomes available, since
    I too do not have a DVD drive in my iMac and I have no interest in
    replacing a perfectly good computer.
     
    Tim McNamara, Aug 28, 2004
    #8
  9. Felix Steiner

    Guest Guest

    no need to replace it; buy an external dvd drive and use that. they're
    pretty cheap now (even dvdrs are rather affordable) and no doubt will
    be even cheaper in a year.
     
    Guest, Aug 28, 2004
    #9
  10. Actually, both possibilities were covered in the initial bitching. It
    wasn't: "Oh, you weren't doing what I thought you were doing that was
    wrong so I'll pick a different nit." It was: "There are two possible
    situations that would lead to you having this question, and in neither
    case is it appropriate for you to ask for the solution here."
     
    Gregory Weston, Aug 29, 2004
    #10
  11. Davoud, maybe you're right. I mean: Why shouldn't one judge the other
    one because of the email address he uses to post his newsgroup
    messages (maybe he has other ones for private usage?) and the fact
    that he posted by google groups because he wasn't at his home computer
    at this time? Quite the mac way, isn't it: take things as simple as
    possible. Or not to admit as Dave Balderstone did that there could at
    least exist the possibility of a legal copy -- and he was right, I did
    violate the NDA by not thinking about it. My fault. I didn't think to
    provide any information about tiger at all... just asking about facts
    everybody knew (the dvd thing).

    But let me answer a question that was never asked:
    I generally don't like optical drives; they're obsolete. And I have
    another mac with a cd-drive that was not working any more (and some
    days out of guaranty) I wanted to install panther (10.3) onto. I took
    my ipod, plugged it into another mac (where panther was already
    installed), named the ipod "booter" and formatted the ipod's harddrive
    to UFS by using the disk utility (this will prevent itunes to do it's
    things on that ipod and it will be a harddisk only, no jukebox any
    more). I then inserted the first cd-rom of my panther family pack and
    opened the shell, did su (change user to root) and then "cp -R
    /Volumes/InstallDisk /Volumes/booter". This took some minutes, and I
    did it with all cds. Then I plugged off the ipod and connected it to
    the mac with the defect cd-rom drive. There i chose the
    "booter"-volume in the finder and doubleclicked on "install panther".
    The computer rebooted and since panther works perfect. (after reformat
    your ipod with the mac extended journaled filesystem, use the ipod
    update and it will work as it did ever before).
    Logical, isn't it? -- but strangely the same thing didn't work with...
    you know.

    I hope sometimes this will prevent you from buying a dvd-drive and you
    can save these 30$ for your next gen ipod instead ;-)
    F. Steiner
     
    Felix Steiner, Aug 29, 2004
    #11
  12. Felix Steiner

    soothsayer Guest

    Every paid up member of adc got one, as did everyone who attended the
    last wwdc. This is public information. Professional members of the
    adc will continue to get preleases of Tiger as it progresses -- again,
    public information. It's for sure not a violation of anything to
    "admit" (as if it were crime) membership in adc or attendance at wwdc.
    Under these circumstances, and given that an average 5-year-old could
    do the math, the mere fact of ownership couldn't be covered by any
    nda: Apple has effectively already made this information public.
     
    soothsayer, Aug 29, 2004
    #12
  13. Felix Steiner

    Davoud Guest

    Felix Steine:
    I might not always be right, but I ain't _never_ wrong*.
    Thanks for that helpful bit of information. You've saved me quite a bit
    of time -- I had accepted a lucrative job to digitize a client's VHS
    tape, edit it using my legally licensed Final Cut Pro
    <http://www.davidillig.com/cinema.shtml>, and author a DVD with my
    legally licensed DVD Studio Pro. Thanks to the information you have
    provided I will contact the client first thing tomorrow and tell him
    that I won't do the job because DVD's are obsolete. Or, I may do the
    job but instead of putting it on an obsolete DVD, I will use Stuffit
    Deluxe to segment the 4GB file and write it to floppies. Luckily, I
    have a truck <http://www.davidillig.com/titan.shtml> in which I can
    deliver the floppies to the client. I'd bet that he'll be delighted to
    not have to deal with a clunky, obsolete DVD!
    Uh-Oh! Too late! The dual G5 I have on order comes with a DVD-R drive
    and I didn't have the sense to delete it in favor of a floppy drive.
    But that's OK; thanks in part to those obsolete DVD's I've been fobbing
    off on my ignorant clients I already have the requisite funds for the
    next gen iPod, and the one after that, and its successor and the
    follow-on to the successor, and the one with the 100 terabytes of flash
    RAM and 60-inch plasma display that folds up to fit in a watch pocket
    (oops! forgot my NDA there!), and the one that comes after that, too
    ;-)

    Davoud

    Brother Dave Gardner: "We in the South might not always be right, but
    'y God, we ain't never wrong!"
     
    Davoud, Aug 29, 2004
    #13
  14. Felix Steiner

    Guest Guest

    the fact that the developer preview was on dvd, the requirements for
    the developer preview list dvd & firewire, all macs currently available
    have a dvd (the non-dvd emac was discontinued last spring) and that
    garage band and idvd ship on dvd strongly suggests that tiger will be
    only dvd. of course, nobody can be sure until it actually ships, but
    the evidence certainly does suggest it.

    and i really don't see what the fuss is - buy an external dvd drive. in
    a year when tiger actually ships, they will be even cheaper than they
    are now. plus, i'm sure there will be some convoluted method to get
    around the requirement like copying it to a spare hard drive.
     
    Guest, Aug 29, 2004
    #14
  15. Are they actually thinking of releasing Tiger on a DVD-ROM?

    I would like that. I don't expect it to be the *only* option, but it'd
    sure be nice to have only one DVD, as opposed to 3 or 4 CDs, to deal
    with during installation.

    They might even be able to fit iDVD in there...
     
    Keeper of the Purple Twilight, Aug 29, 2004
    #15
  16. Felix Steiner

    soothsayer Guest

    First of all, the NDA almost certainly explicitly excludes publicly
    available information. I've seen dozens of NDAs, including several
    from Apple, and I've never seen one that doesn't. It's standard NDA
    boiler plate. Even if publicly available information is not
    explicitly excluded, no court would ever find that the disclosure of
    such information violated an NDA. It would make no sense. If you can
    cite a case the contrary, please do.
     
    soothsayer, Aug 29, 2004
    #16
  17. So, to summarize, you are a Mac software developer who uses an iMac
    that is 10 or so generations from currency; who doesn't own a DVD
    drive; and who somehow manages to "play with things" (which I suppose
    is developer talk for "test and evaluate with the intent of improving
    et al") without knowing how to install the software that you are
    testing and evaluating. Please let me know what software you are
    developing so that I can be sure to avoid it.[/QUOTE]

    No need to be completely agro - his test machine might such an old
    machine because that is the one which can be sacrificed. (Admittedly,
    the poster does not sound like the software developers I know, but that
    could just be background. QT developers also sound different in print.)

    For what it is worth, I have a perfectly legal copy of Tiger sitting
    here that has not gotten installed because my test partiton is busy with
    a different configuration. My easily available test machine is a TiBook
    667 without a DVD drive, which would be a pain to install on, because
    the 1.5 17" that replaced it is busy.

    My solution is to wait until just before the MacOS X conference, then
    wipe one of my firewire drives to do a test install on.

    Scott
     
    Scott Ellsworth, Aug 30, 2004
    #17
  18. Basic ADC Online membership is free. To receive software mailings, you
    have to pay. For $199 per year, an Online member gets the monthly
    Developer CD and quarterly Developer DVD Series, containing development
    tools, code samples, and documentation, as well as reference releases of
    Mac OS and XCode on CD sets (same as the commercial releases but without
    box or coupons).

    Only Select and Premier ADC members receive (and are usually entitled to
    use) pre-release software, such as the current release of Tiger. A copy
    of Tiger was also given to each paid attendee at WWDC, including ADC
    Online members.

    Apple software received as part of the ADC program is covered by the ADC
    Terms and Conditions as well as any special terms and conditions
    attached to a particular piece of software.

    To my knowledge, there is no general requirement that ADC members,
    including recipients of pre-release software, do any particular testing
    or bug reporting.

    A chart of ADC membership levels and benefits is available at
    <http://developer.apple.com/membership/>.
     
    Neill Massello, Aug 31, 2004
    #18
  19. Does the NDA actually say you can't claim to have a copy?
     
    Matthew Russotto, Aug 31, 2004
    #19
  20. Felix Steiner

    Ralph Martin Guest

    Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 09:46:08 +0100
    Message-ID: <>

    Wrong. The NDA specifically covers information which Apple has not made
    public. I am under NDA from Apple, and have read their NDA. It allows me
    to tell you that Tiger has RSS in Safari, for example, as this is
    already publicly disclosed by Apple at
    http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/safari.html

    --
    Prof Ralph Martin
    Dept of Computer Science Phone: +44(0)29 2087 5536
    Cardiff University Fax: +44(0)29 2087 4598
    PO Box 916, 5 The Parade Email: mailto:
    Cardiff, CF24 3XF, United Kingdom WWW: http://ralph.cs.cf.ac.uk/
     
    Ralph Martin, Sep 2, 2004
    #20
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