Tyan and Antec?

Hi, there.

I posted earlier this month in alt.comp.homebuilt on my next "god box"
workstation ideas.
I've narrowed down a few specs and want opinions as to whether I'm on
the right track.

Intended use is as a graphics design (2-D) workstation and file
server, with multi-tasking/multi-threading capacity today, and with an
upgrade path to full 64-bit computing over a five-year work cycle.

All prices current today from my usual assembler and in Canadian
dollars.

Currently looking at:

Tyan Thunder K8WE S2895A2NRF $549 (see
http://www.tyan.com/products/html/thunderk8we.html )


2 x AMD Opteron 242 1.6GHz CPU 2 x $248 (May go for a faster pair)
under Windows 2K to start, then Win XP64 in 2006. Probably will add
Zalman processor fans.

8 x Kingston 1GB Reg ECC KVR400D4R3A/1G 8 x $267

OR
4 x Corsair CM72SD1024RLP-3200/S PC 3200/DDR400 sticks...See a
Canadian price of $180 for these at
http://www.atic.ca/index.php?page=showall&man=129&cat=4 .

If I am running a 32-bit OS for the near term, it's stupid to install
RAM the OS can't see until I go to Win XP64, right? This will save
money, unless anyone thinks there's a reliability problem with
Corsair. Other recommended makes/prices?

Western Digital 74GB SATA 10K $219 I like this model, and that
price is OK. This computer will likely have at least two more drives
and/or be linked via Gigabit Ethernet to my current dualie PIII as a
RAID backup/file server.

ATI Radeon X1600XT 256MB PCIE $169 I like this model, and that price
is OK. This won't be a game box.

Antec Titan Server Case $159 If this case (which I like A LOT)
comes with the True Power 2.0 550 W power supply (TP2-550EPS12V) and
the included HD fan, then I have to do more research on other power
supplies, but that's also a good price. There is currently some debate
over this PS and the Tyan board I favour. Any alternatives that
emphasize QUIET and COOLER will be favoured (Zalman, Silverstone?), as
will alternative case recommendations that can deal with the Extended
ATX form factor.

TIA,
R.

 

Hi,

I've got a few comments. First, I love the Tyan Thunder K8WE
S2895A2NRF board. I've had great luck with mine. Second, I'd at least
consider dual core processors. If you move to Win64, this give you the
possibility of having up to four equivalent processors for a $140.00
operating system. (www.zipzoomfly.com). Third, I would probably *not*
buy a case and a power supply together. The K8WE potentially uses far
more power than any 550 watt power supply can deliver. You have to
look, in particular, for how many amps on the 12 volt rail. Many of us
have PC Power & Cooling 850 watt power supplies. I'd also consider
Lian-Li aluminum cases. Fourth, you can get cheaper memory. I bought
generic Samsung 2 GB sticks from MemoryForLess.com for $385.00 per
stick. That leave you more slots--which you'll probably never
uses--but it also saves you money. I had to bargain over the phone to
get this price.

I hope this at least gives you some ideas.

Have a Merry Christmas!

Jim

 

I did, and thanks. I do hear decent things about Lian-Li, but I hear
the PC P&C power supplies are noisy. Noisy is bad. This will be a
business/graphics workstation with at most three drives. I won't be
overclocking, but I will be multitasking/threading a LOT, same as I
have done on my dual CPU rigs since' 97, both ASUS and both still
functioning. But I am just hearing that Tyan's K8WE is the mainboard I
can stick with for the next few years and just pop in dual core
Opterons and more RAM should I need to, and better video cards if I
wish.

So I can stick with 550-600 watt for now if that means quiet, because
I figure I won't tax this rig at first. If I throw a bunch of cards
in, yes, I would change up. I like the Antec case, but I can't get a
solid grasp on a quiet and RELIABLE PS for this particular board,
which I do NOT want to fry because I bought the wrong PS.

R.

 

It's ironic, but the PC Power & Cooling *higher* wattage power supplies
are actually far more effecient than their lower power siblings. (But
they cost more too.) They *are* noisey, however, you are correct
there, but my 510 is noiser than my 850. Sometimes I can't tell
whether my K8WE is on or not without watching the CPU fans.

I hope this helps.

Jim

 

Very much so. I have read so much that's positive about this PS that I
think I'll get it, even though it will cost the same as the mobo.

I do have one question, though: the draw of this thing is rated at 12
amps, or most of a typcal 15 amp circuit. I assume that is when it's
drawing all 850 W? I can't see EVER drawing that even with dual
Opterons, as I wouldn't be running five drives, three DVD-ROMs, etc.

But as it WILL be on most of the time, I want to realistically figure
out if I should have an electrician run a dedicated 15 amp circuit to
a GFCI wall outlet...just for this one box.

A secondary concern is the UPS. I bought a few months back an APC
Back-UPS 800, which is rated for 540 watts. I bought it specifically
for the next computer...my current dualie AND router AND phone AND
monitor draw less than 200 watts, which means this is overkill (I can
run about 30 minutes just on the UPS). Do you think that this UPS is
sufficient for this spec? (updated to today's estimates!)

Tyan Thunder K8WE
Dual Opteron 242s or 248s (haven't decided)
4 x 1 Corsair ECC DDR-400 RAM
1 x Western Digital SATA Raptor 74 G drive.
1 x ATI Radeon X1600 256MB PCIE
Couple of auxiliary fans
Undetermined mid-range sound card
Couple of USB devices (low draw)
2 x ViewSonic 19" LCDs of pro quality.

May I ask what case you have your PCP&C 850W in? At first, I will have
just one PCI-E video card and one WD Raptor SATA drive, so a tower
with a couple of 120 mm fans in it will keep things cool.

Thanks for the guidance. This is beyond where most people spec out
systems, it seems, but when I buy, I buy with the intention of using
the rig for 4-5 years, and then I go "big" again...

R.

 

In his posting of Wed, 28 Dec 2005, rhys writes

snip

Hello!

I don't meant to barge in on your thread but whilst power supplies are
being discussed it did make me wonder if the unit that was supplied with
my new box was really adequate.

This is a dual, dual core Opteron 2.4 rig using a Tyan S2895 board
running 4 X15K Seagates and a large SATA drive plus five cooling fans.
No doubt I will be adding additional drives in the future. The power
supply is a Seasonic 600W unit.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Richard

 

Well, that's a pretty comprehensive rig! You are certainly welcome to
participate as these boards seems a bit picky about their power.

According to http://www.pcpowercooling.com/technology/power_usage/ ,
you can essentially "do the math" and add up what you already have to
determine total watts drawn at 100% load. The good news is that dual
cores draw no more than single cores, for all I know. The less good
news is that you already have a lot of fans and big fast drives.

Two video cards, as well, I am guessing. That's a lot.

According to this: http://www.tyan.com/support/html/r_s2895.html
Seasonic is *NOT* a "recommended" PS. Why this is I have no idea, but
it would be worth investigating if you determine your PS won't cut it
should you draw more load. I am finding the poorly displayed but
useful forums on http://www.k8we.com/?q=gettingstarted and here:
http://forums.2cpu.com/ to be helpful.

What case are you using, please?

R.

 

In his posting of Wed, 28 Dec 2005, rhys writes
snip

Well yes but they are not high consumption items as far as I am aware. I
am running the Matrox 650 and the 450 cards but have not been able so
far to find what they do consume. Adding up the list using the URL is
a frightening task. I have six strips of ram which working on 8w per 128
ram gives a far too high a figure of 384w to be credible! Without the
ram and the 1.8 multiplier I get to a guess based on these figures of
685w....surely this cannot be correct?

The case is the tall Lian-Li silver finish job and to my mind is a real
star. What a pleasure it is to be able to smoothly roll it in and out
from under the work top. I've done plenty of this these last couple of
days<G>

Cheers

Richard

 

No, but their fans can be. They're a variable load, regardless.

I

I can't say if that is accurate. I would say that while a power supply
maker has a vested interest in "overselling" their product, I would
generally hold to the principle that a power supply that isn't
constantly run full-tilt will likely run more quietly and with greater
stability in its delivered voltage...highly desirable with this mobo,
I am led to believe.

I would use Google to see if other generic wattages can be found.
Conversely, my dual Pentium III (a low-power CPU compared to today's),
two CPU fans, and with 1 GIG of RAM and three EIDE drives, an AGP
video card with a small fan, two case fans and a few other PCI cards,
draws between 167 and 210 watts from a 350 watt power supply. I know
this from my UPS software monitoring:
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BR800BLK

So maybe 685 watts *isn't* insanely high, given that faster RAM and
Opterons draw more power (I believe the Opterons need 90 w each
alone...)

Thanks. My case choices are SilverStone TJ-03, Antec Titan and now
that LianLi PCV2000AW. Lian-Li is getting good recommendations, even
though it's not on the "recommended" list Tyan puts out.

R.

 

Richard,

According to the President of PC Power & Cooling it's all about how
many amps on the 12 volt rail. Most of the major consumers of power
consume from the 12 volt system. Many of us are happy with the PC
Power & Cooling 850. Just the two CPUs, Video card, and RAID use up
more than 300 watts. All the other stuff must take another 200, and
you always want room to grow.

Jim

 

In his posting of Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Jim writes

Dear Jim

Thanks for your two postings. As regards the capacity that is
appropriate for the PSU to power this computer recently assembled for me
I do not want to take issue with these people without good reason.

As the result of unhappiness with certain aspects of their performance
to date I am in a questioning mood however. Two dual core Opteron 2.4,
five fans which surely do not draw that much, five V fast SCSI drives,
six sticks of 1G ram, and one large SATA. I run a dual pentium and
five V fast SCSI drives all off one 300w unit and that seems fine so am
I really right to be concerned with a 600 w unit in the new computer I
wonder?

Cheers

Richard

 

This is the unit I've ordered. It will probably arrive today. I was
persuaded that due to my requirements to buy in Q4 2005 a set of
components that will still serve me in Q1 2009 (and which can be
reasonably expanded as needed to take in dual video cards, three or
four large HDs, and other power-sucking gear, that this unit and its
particularly method of construction offered my best choice.

This machine is being assembled by my usual shop and as I can only
play with it between work cycles, I've told them "no rush". I need it
done right, not done tomorrow.

Just in case anyone is interested,
I have ordered the Tyan Thunder K8WE/S2895 and the system currently
consists of that, plus 4 x 1 Corsair ECC DDR-400 3200 RAM sticks,
2 x 1 Opteron 246s
1 x ATI X1600XT PCI-e video card
1 Western Digital Raptor WD740GD (00FLC0 revision) HD
Antec Titan server case w/PCP&C 850 w PSU
Floppy drive
Probably LaCie DVD-ROM burner/CD-ROM RW...to be determined
Microsoft 6000 wired mouse and other extras (keyboard?) as needed.

I will go with the onboard audio and networking for the moment as that
will suffice my modest needs in this area.

Initial OS will be reliable old Windows 2000. All my current graphics
apps, even the newest, are happy with it and I find it quite reliable.

I plan to expand to several HDs, probably three, maybe four. I also
can see going within two years to two dual core CPUs as I migrate to
64-bit OS and recompiled apps.

Suggestions as to a decent LCD monitor are welcome. I have found the
higher-end Viewsonic models good value for my needs, but will gladly
hear suggestions in the 19"-21" range.

R.

 

R,

Sounds like a nice system! You'll probably end up going with RAID
in the not too distant future. Once you've had the protection of RAID,
you never want to go back.

Jim

 

Well, the plan involves upgrading over four years, so I would be
foolish to rule that out. My current methods involve partitioning
largish physical drives into logical drives, as in C:/OS, D:/programs,
E:/data, and then backing up just the data partition to a second
physical drive, and then further archiving in an old machine over the
network. Works for me, but a RAID array with scheduled back-ups is
more bulletproof.

The main point in this current overkill is to prep for a move to 64
bit apps and greater video subsystem speed. Drives are comparatively
cheap, as are RAID schemes.

R.

 

R,

RAID is not as inexpensive as you may think. First, you need at least
four drives for a good, safe system. Second, the best drives, with the
16 MB caches, tend also to be the largest, most expensive, drives. The
fastest SATA II PCI-X 133 MHz controllers aren't cheap. It's easy to
spend $2000.00 to $2500.00 on just the RAID component.

Jim

 

In the following rambling article, there is no mention of
gauging +3.3V and +5V, because not enough info is available
to do them justice. Generally speaking, such a large supply
is needed to get enough +12V, that generally there is an
excess of available +3.3V and +5V current, so there is no
worry there. The last situation where +5V was in short
supply, was on the old AthlonMP duallies.

First of all, you can use the "reality test" for power questions.
If the RAM was dissipating 384W, the area above the RAM would
be heated as if there were 6+ 60Watt light bulbs. Do you feel
the heat of that many light bulbs, directly above the DIMM
slots ?

It is easy to get real numbers for RAM.

Kingston 2GB registered ECC PC3200 DDR module 36 chips - 11 watts
Power is based on 18 busy chips and 18 idle chips (128Mx4)...
http://www.valueram.com/datasheets/KVR400D4R3A_2G.pdf

Kingston 1GB registered ECC PC3200 DDR module 18 chips - 9.7 watts
Power is based on 18 busy chips and 0 idle chips (128Mx4)...
http://www.valueram.com/datasheets/KVR400S4R3A_1G.pdf

Kingston 1GB registered ECC PC3200 DDR module 36 chips - 8.7 watts
Power is based on 18 busy chips and 18 idle chips (64Mx4)...
http://www.valueram.com/datasheets/KVR400D4R3A_2G.pdf

Kingston 512MB registered ECC PC3200 DDR module 18 chips - 5.9 watts
Power is based on 18 busy chips and 0 idle chips (64Mx4)...
http://www.valueram.com/datasheets/KVR400S4R3A_512.pdf

Kingston 512MB registered ECC PC3200 DDR module 18 chips - 4.4 watts
Power is based on 9 busy chips and 9 idle chips (32Mx8)...
http://www.valueram.com/datasheets/KVR400D8R3A_512.pdf

Another sanity check on the idle power the chips use, is
the realization that the 5VSB supply (usually 2A max) is
used to power the memory chips when the computer is in
S3 sleep mode. Thus, the power to keep the chips in
refresh ("idle" mode), has to be less than that.

When you populate all 8 channels, since you are in dual
channe, you could consider 4 DIMMs to be "busy"
and 4 DIMMs to be idle. If you used (8) 2GB DIMMs,
instead of the power being 8*11W, it will be 4*11W + 4*a_few_Watts
and certainly much less than 88W. If you hold your hand
over the DIMM area on the motherboard, do you feel the heat
equivalent of a single 60W light bulb ? Probably not.

I hope you can see from these numbers, that you will not be
drawing 384W, but a lower number. Since I can see a little
switching regulator next to the DIMMs, it is not possible to
positively determine which rail the DIMMs draw their power from.
An educated guess would be the +5V rail.

For Opteron power:

http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_papers_and_tech_docs/30417.pdf

I don't know which processor you have, but if I assume it
is a 95W processor, the current draw assuming 90% efficiency
of the Vcore converter is 95W/12V * (1/0.90) = 8.8 amps from
the 12V rail.

On disks, for IDE disks I assume [email protected] and [email protected] when
idle. For a desktop, virtually all drives are idle. For
a server, all disks are busy (and have a higher power number).
Spinup is a special case, and drives draw [email protected] and as much as
[email protected] for the first 20 seconds or so. With your SCSI drives,
there could be a "staggered spin" option, to prevent
simultaneous spinup. A Seagate 15K.4 uses 12W idle and 17W
busy. I'd guess they split [email protected] and [email protected] or so, for the
idle power estimate.

Here are some sources of video card info:
http://takaman.jp/D/?english
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/ati-powercons.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/ati-vs-nv-power.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/geforce6600gt-oc_3.html
High end cards 112W max, but no breakdown on which rail.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/geforce7800gtx512_5.html

If a card has no fan, estimate 20W (and no particular rail)
If a card has a fan, estimate 40W (and no particular rail)
If a card is PCI Express, has a fan, has an aux connector, assume
it draws virtually all power through +12V. Thus 9A per card
on the 12V rail, is the max to be expected.

The Seasonic S12 600W

[email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]

is "an ATX 2.0 with extra connectors" and not an SSI. I cannot
find a wiring diagram for the connectors. Significant loads
are processor 0 (8.8 amps), processor 1 (8.8 amps), PCI-E
video card 0 (9A), PCI-E video card 1 (9A), fans (1A),
and disk drives (5*0.6A). These loads must be split over the
two 18A outputs somehow. With the use of low power video cards,
the split probably isn't too important, but with a real
SLI setup you'd definitely need to see details, to know if
the Seasonic would be overloaded on one of its +12V outputs.

The two PCP&C Turbocool supplies have three output rails.
The expected split would be one each for each processor
socket, and the third (larger output) handles disk drives
and PCI-E video cards. But since details of 12V1, 12V2, and
12V3 are not in their wiring diagram, my suggested split
is wishful thinking. I would need an ohmmeter to verify
which loads are connected together.

There are also supplies with quad outputs. This article
mentions that a Silverstone ST65ZF uses:

http://www.linuxhardware.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/15/1742246&mode=thread

+12V1: CPU0
+12V2: CPU1, SATA, Motherboard
+12V3: Motherboard, PCI-Express
+12V4: Molex Connectors

so you have to divvy up your load calculation to the
appropriate output. (Motherboard there, generally means
the fan headers, but the motherboard also would drive
the PCI Express edge card. The "PCI Express" 12V3 mentioned
in the table above, would be the 2x3 aux power connector
for the video card. And the high power video cards would
draw all their +12V from the cable, so as to avoid
burning the edge card pins that have a limit of 1A per
pin. A 6600GT would draw 4.5 amps from the edge card
[based on the Xbitlabs article], but a 7800GTX should
be drawing its current from the aux cable instead. At
least that is my best guess, as xbitlabs hasn't done
as much detail on their power measurements, since their
original nice pair of ATI/Nvidia articles.)

So, I would say the "class" of the supply is good,
but the devil is in the details, which are not available
on the web.

For these high end systems, you really need the output
rail specs, and a wiring diagram of the cable harness, in
order to determine whether a multiple +12V output supply
is OK or no. For a Zippy I saw, with a single +12V @ 40A
output, the arithmetic is much easier.

Finally, buying a "Kill-O-Watt" meter, which measure
AC consumption, then scaling by the stated efficiency
of the power supply, will give a rough estimate of
how much power is being used by the hardware. For an
80% efficient Seasonic, 300W used by the hardware
means the Kill-O-Watt will read 375W. Find a loading
program like Prime95 (torture test option - mersenne.org)
while doing such power measurements, or add a gaming
demo loop as well if you are a gamer, to try to
keep as many cores busy as possible.

HTH,
Paul

 

I didn't find it rambling at all, although some of the detail was
revelatory of my ignorance. I thank and commend you for your
thoughtful input to my original questions and the subsequent
conversation. On Friday, the PCP&C 850 W unit arrived and that's going
to be the power supply, even if it is perhaps overkill in my
situation. Frankly, I would rather have that overkill and "wiggle
room" for future expansion than not, but were I not buying this for
business use (and thus seeing expenditures turn into tax credits), but
rather as a hobbyist/gamer, I would be extremely pissed off I hadn't
read your cogent post earlier.

I am taking the power supply (which is, I must admit, a thing of
beauty as these things go and appears absurdly robust and
well-constructed) down to my "clone assembler" shop of choice later
today. It's going to go into the Antec Titan case, which has room for
fans today and growth tomorrow.

Again, thanks for going to that trouble. I will look at some of those
lab power consumption reports with great interest, because heat and
fan noise is a bugbear with me.

R.

 

In his posting of Mon, 9 Jan 2006, Paul writes

Dear Paul

My apologies for the long delay in saying thank you for taking the time
and trouble to put all this valuable information together. I have been
away for some weeks and only just now spotted it!

Best wishes

Richard

snip