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Ultra 5/10 vs Ultra 60 for workstation.

Discussion in 'Sun Hardware' started by Dave (from the UK), Jan 16, 2006.

  1. I am looking to get a *cheap* ultra based workstation to mess about
    with. Considering the Ultra 5/10 or 60. Any thoughts about the relative
    merits of the two?

    The Ultra 5/10 has the advantage of large cheap disks, although I
    probably have a 36 GB disk I can use and have a mate who can often get
    me a freebie 36 GB disk, so the more expensive SCSI disks are not such a
    disadvantage.

    Just interested in other comments about the two machines for a second
    workstation. I have a quad processor U80 as a main machine.

    If anyone in the UK has one, or a similar box (might consider a U30),
    let me know.

    --
    Dave K

    http://www.southminster-branch-line.org.uk/

    Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
    It is always of the form: [email protected] Hitting reply will work
    for a couple of months only. Later set it manually. The month is
    always written in 3 letters (e.g. Jan, not January etc)
     
    Dave (from the UK), Jan 16, 2006
    #1
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  2. Dave (from the UK)

    J.O. Aho Guest

    U5/10 uses IDE.

    U60 can have dual CPU configuration, which you can't on U5/10.
    UPA on the U60 seems to work okey under linux, which UPA on the U5/10 don't.
    You can hook up more RAM to the U60.

    If you can get a U60 for cheap, I would suggest you would go for that one, you
    can get a bit more performance from it than from the U5/10. Harddrives will be
    more expensive, but don't think you are limited to small harddrives as you are
    on the IDE of U5/10.


    //Aho
     
    J.O. Aho, Jan 16, 2006
    #2
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  3. and a disadvantage of not being able to use them : <
    I believe the hard limit is about 120 GB from memory.
    Lest we forget we are talking SLOW IDE here as well.
    Dual 36 GB SCSI for OS aint too shabby : >

    For bulk storage you can purchase an inexpensive USB 2.0 card and add
    external USB drives with none of the restrictions of the internal Ultra
    5
    which will only easily fit a single drive..
    With the U60 youd have a comparable machine to the 80...
    I dont think youd gain anything from the 5.
     
    [email protected], Jan 16, 2006
    #3
  4. On the downside, the Ultra 60 makes a lot more noise than the U5/10.

    Casper
     
    Casper H.S. Dik, Jan 16, 2006
    #4
  5. Dave (from the UK)

    VinnyC Guest

    I know I"m on the wrong side of the pond, but I have all the Ultra 60's
    you could ever use, cheap.

    Ultra 60/450Mhz/1Gb Memory/ 18Gb Disk,/C3D $300

    Other Configs avail
     
    VinnyC, Jan 16, 2006
    #5
  6. I think the limit is 137 GB.

    But SCSI starts getting expensive at that size, so without spending a
    lot of money, IDE is not such a disadvantage. A 147 GB SCSI disk would
    cost more than a Ultra 60.
    I forgot that, I think its only ATA-33, which does mean there would be a
    *serious* performance disadvantage compared to SCSI. I think makes my
    mind up!
    True. Would have to ask nicely for another drive!!!
    IIRC the Ultra 10 has space for two drives. May be wrong. Can't say I
    have ever really looked inside one.

    Still, I don't really want one for mass storage - just something I can
    mess around with, and not care if I trash the OS.
    Cherrs.

    I'll forgot the U5 or U10. I'd forgotten the fact that the IDE is pretty
    slow on them.

    I also have another Ultra 60 here, so can swap RAM, disks and CPUs if
    need be.

    --
    Dave K

    http://www.southminster-branch-line.org.uk/

    Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
    It is always of the form: [email protected] Hitting reply will work
    for a couple of months only. Later set it manually. The month is
    always written in 3 letters (e.g. Jan, not January etc)
     
    Dave (from the UK), Jan 16, 2006
    #6
  7. Dave (from the UK)

    J.O. Aho Guest

    You can't say that U5/10 is a quiet machine, it's more noisy than most
    machines, not made for desktop use, but hidden into a computer hall to spare
    the ears of the users.

    I have exchanged the Sun-PSU to a quiet PersonalComputer-PSU, still not
    exchanged the front panel fan, but that is next and then I will have got it
    down to 20dB(A) and will just be 2dB(A) more loud than my current server.

    The same trick can be done on the U60.


    //Aho
     
    J.O. Aho, Jan 16, 2006
    #7
  8. Dave (from the UK)

    J.O. Aho Guest

    Two 5.25" and one 3.5" (the other one is taken of the floppy).

    There ain't that much space in those U10:s, which I had a bigger case to mine,
    it starts to be more than full.


    //Aho
     
    J.O. Aho, Jan 16, 2006
    #8
  9. I believe thats a "pre-formatted" or marketing value : >
    Real is closer to 120
    My "160" GB USB drive is actually 147 GB
    No need for that if you use the USB drives : >
    Externals do cost a bit more granted
    : >
    Yes - I did that back in 2001 or so. Its a pain if you wish to keep the
    floppy.. Not really worth the trouble
    OK how DO you backup anyway ...? : >
    An external x00 GB USB drive might come in handy.
     
    [email protected], Jan 16, 2006
    #9
  10. Dave (from the UK)

    J.O. Aho Guest

    This has little to do with formating, it's just a mathematical trick

    The manufacturer calculates the size:
    160x1000x1000x1000 bytes

    Computer calculates
    160000000000/1024/1024/1024 = 149

    This seems to be quite common on IDE harddrives (a few exceptions), while on
    SCSI it tends to be that the size is real.



    //Aho
     
    J.O. Aho, Jan 16, 2006
    #10
  11. It's 120GB binary; which equals 137GB metric.

    Casper
     
    Casper H.S. Dik, Jan 16, 2006
    #11
  12. I don't think so; I've never seen a drive with binary GB advertised.

    Casper
     
    Casper H.S. Dik, Jan 16, 2006
    #12
  13. You will need to watch the airflow though.

    The flow rate in free air, which is marked on fans, bears little
    resemblence to what flow you get when you restrict the fan. So just
    because two fans are marked with the same free air flow rate, means next
    to nothing.

    The noise from fans is mainly due to the movement of air.

    All fans have a pressure/flow curve. In free air, the flow is highest,
    but as you increase the back pressure, so the flow drops. And it drops a
    *lot*.

    I have a large fan in something I built. The fan has a free-air flow
    rate of about 1500 cubic feet per minute, but it does to about 300 cfm
    when it is obstructed with the valve it is cooling. That fan uses 2.8 kW
    of power!!

    --
    Dave K

    http://www.southminster-branch-line.org.uk/

    Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
    It is always of the form: [email protected] Hitting reply will work
    for a couple of months only. Later set it manually. The month is
    always written in 3 letters (e.g. Jan, not January etc)
     
    Dave (from the UK), Jan 16, 2006
    #13
  14. That is far from cheap!! I've seen a similar one in the UK, but without
    the CD, for half that price.

    --
    Dave K

    http://www.southminster-branch-line.org.uk/

    Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
    It is always of the form: [email protected] Hitting reply will work
    for a couple of months only. Later set it manually. The month is
    always written in 3 letters (e.g. Jan, not January etc)
     
    Dave (from the UK), Jan 16, 2006
    #14
  15. Dave (from the UK)

    Steve Guest

    I'm in UK, and I got an Ultra 60 (2x360's - 1536mb) and and Ultra 30
    (300 - 512mb) and I'm looking so say goodbye to them to finance the
    rebuiding of four bare E450's I just got 99p (really!)

    Mind u - the memory wll go into the E450, funny really when u see U60's
    cheap and memory higher.......

    Ste
     
    Steve, Jan 17, 2006
    #15
  16. Dave (from the UK)

    dion_b Guest

    SCSI is faster, but don't overrate the performance difference. ATA has
    max 2 drives per channel, with one drive on a channel you get 33MB/s for
    that drive, which is definately not U320 performance, but more than many
    IDE hard disks more than two years old can manage (far more than the
    abominable 9.1GB Seagate drive originally shipped with the U10).

    Plus the U10 has PCI, so you can get SCSI easily enough...


    But PCI is the main reason to choose the U60:

    It has a 64b PCI bus as opposed to the 32b bus on the U10. That means
    better throughput on your SunPCI II (not that that will be too
    noticeable), but also on the SCSI controller and it allows Gb Ethernet
    to actually approach the Gb mark. Even though it seems to get a better
    throughput out of the PCI bus than several newer PCs I own, the 32b PCI
    on my U10 is definately the limiting factor for I/O.
     
    dion_b, Jan 17, 2006
    #16
  17. True.

    In fact, I have a dual Sun SCSI card here, which I had to remove from my
    Ultra 80 when I run out of PCI slots. I tried selling it on eBay, but
    could not get sufficient to make it worth my while going to the post
    office. Perhaps I am glad now!!

    I've also got a single channel IBM SCSI card, which I believe will work.
    It uses the same chip set as the Sun ones.

    The U10 does have another advantage too - I can add a cheap DVD writer.
    I'm not sure how practical that is in a U60, being only SCSI. Perhaps
    one can add an IDE card (or SCSI->IDE converter) but I don't have one of
    them, whereas I do have a SCSI card.
    Another interesting point I was not aware of.

    Summing up, so far I seem to have:

    * Advantages of a U60 *

    Dual processors
    Max 2 GB RAM
    SCSI disks
    Faster (64-bit) PCI bus
    More expansion space.
    Bigger cache
    More RAM slots, so you are less likely to need to get rid of ram in
    order to add RAM.
    Possible to add bigger disks, although these are expensive.

    * Advantages of the Ultra 10 *

    IDE - cheap disks, upto the limit of 137 GB.
    Less noisy

    It's not a run-away win for the U60, but I think on balance it seems the
    better of the two, despite the fact that several of its advantages (more
    RAM, dual processors), is not something I really want.


    --
    Dave K

    http://www.southminster-branch-line.org.uk/

    Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
    It is always of the form: [email protected] Hitting reply will work
    for a couple of months only. Later set it manually. The month is
    always written in 3 letters (e.g. Jan, not January etc)
     
    Dave (from the UK), Jan 17, 2006
    #17
  18. Dave (from the UK)

    J.O. Aho Guest

    Use of bigger fans, if you can't keep up with the original airflow.

    The kind of fan makes different, specially how the axel is connected.

    Keep in mind this affects the original fan too and fans that has been working
    for many ears already are often a lot more noisy due the worn out.


    //Aho
     
    J.O. Aho, Jan 17, 2006
    #18
  19. I beg to differ. In my office I have both an U60, an U5 and a MultiPac.
    The MultiPac makes the most noise and will have to go as soon as I can boot
    the U60 off ZFS.
    The U5 is still noisier than the U60, which suprised me. Actually, my U60
    might have a noise reduction kit installed as it makes virtually no noise
    at all, comparable to modern office desktops. It does, however, output
    quite a bit of heat.

    Today, I'd say that a maxed-out U60 is the smallest Sun workstation to get
    actual work done. An (again, maxed-out) U5/10 is still OK as a desktop, but
    I have to run all but the trivial applications remote on bigger servers.

    BTW, if anyone has a maxed-out U80, E4500 or A5200 to sell cheaply, I'd be
    interested. :)

    ps. "Huey, I just don't think I belong in this new world. I don't know if I
    need the 20 gig iPod or the 40 gig..." 'Dr. Martin Luther King jr.' in The
    Boondocks.
     
    Torsten Kirschner, Jan 17, 2006
    #19
  20. Ah, mine don't have that. (And it's not available any more)

    Certainly the Sun Blade 2000 I use now makes much less noise than
    either.

    Casper
     
    Casper H.S. Dik, Jan 17, 2006
    #20
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