upgrade?

Discussion in 'Asus' started by grylion, Oct 17, 2011.

  1. grylion

    grylion Guest

    Hi all,
    I am out of touch with the present tech specs but I just want an opinion.
    I have an Asus PK5 E with a dual core 2.5 pentium processor.
    Also it has an ATI radeon 3800 video card.
    2 g ram
    window xp
    Would it be practicle to upgrade this setup? If so any suggestions?
    My kids have started gaming and want a bit more oomph
    I dont want to spend a fortune on this as I use my laptop most of the time
    and have abandoned this desktop to the kids.
    Cheers Peter UK
     
    grylion, Oct 17, 2011
    #1
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  2. grylion

    Paul Guest

    A P5K-E is LGA775. A CPU upgrade would involve more cores or more clock speed.

    http://support.asus.com/Cpusupport/List.aspx?SLanguage=en&m=P5K-E&p=1&s=22

    Core 2 Duo E8600 (3.33GHz,1333FSB,L2:6MB,65W,rev.E0) ALL 1102
    Core 2 Quad Q9650(rev.E0,3.00GHz,1333FSB,L2:12MB) ALL 1102

    The E8600 would give you 3.3/2.5 = 1.32x ratio.

    The Q9650 would be 3.0/2.5 = 1.20x ratio, but with more cores. Some
    games have multiple threads of execution, and the game can use more
    of the cores. For example, if you were playing Microsoft Flight Simulator X
    (FSX), then you'd want the quad core, as it gets better performance.
    But games are usually "lopsided", with the boss thread running a core at
    100% and the other cores are less loaded, and in that case, the E8600
    extra clock speed would help that particular boss thread. In single threaded
    situations, the E8600 is going to feel slightly better than the Q9650.

    E8600 $290
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115054

    Q9650 $340
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115130

    Now, for comparison, the latest generation would be this.

    i7-2600K Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz (3.8GHz Turbo Boost) 95W Quad-Core $315
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115070

    It's more powerful than either of those processors, with a price in between.

    It's not possible to do "single point" CPU characterisation, but I'll try
    anyway. If we use PassMark, these are the results. I expect this puts
    weight into multiple threads, so the game must be multi-threaded, for
    this to have predictive value. The results would tend to follow clock
    rate alone, if the benchmark was single threaded. The 2600K is a different
    generation of processor, in a different socket, and IPC is likely higher.

    http://www.cpubenchmark.net

    Intel Core i7-2600K @ 3.40GHz 9,978 passmarks
    Intel Core2 Quad Q9650 @ 3.00GHz 4,625 passmarks
    Intel Core2 Duo E8600 @ 3.33GHz 2,653 passmarks

    For single threaded, I might try SuperPI 32m - basically a clock rate comparison.
    The newer generation 2600K seems to be better at this. I selected "32m" or
    32 million digits, as it has a data footprint of something like 256MB and
    doesn't fit into an L2 or L3 internal cache. That ensures the results aren't
    tainted by cache or the lack thereof. Also note that, the results on this
    web site, are all over the map, and I hardly trust them. I see too much
    unit to unit variation, when I've looked into details, to really trust them.
    The spreads are too big. So this is only "roughly illustrative".

    2600K 9min 55sec Core i7 2600K at 3328MHz
    http://www.hwbot.org/submission/2211562_kirbster_superpi_32m_core_i7_2600k_9min_55sec_516ms

    Q9650 15min 6sec Core 2 Q9650 (3Ghz) at 2940MHz
    http://www.hwbot.org/submission/2102053_junior_21__superpi_32m_core_2_q9650_3ghz_15min_6sec_141ms

    E8600 13min 7sec Core 2 E8600 (3.33Ghz) at 3420MHz
    (Detailed submission page - erased. Ask me why I hate hwbot!)

    Now, seeing as I threw in a motherboard change, with the 2600K,
    then I suppose it would only be fair to throw AMD into the mix.
    Maybe I can find an AMD processor faster than your Pentium,
    the price would be a bit different (cheaper) than the Intel
    stuff I put in the charts above. But then, there'd be so many
    more variables, it would take the rest of the day to reach
    any conclusions.

    I've had a similar problem here, with this "upgrade thing" on the
    Core2 generation. For a significant improvement, you have to spend
    so much more cash, it's almost worthwhile to jump to the next
    generation. Maybe a lower end, cheaper Sandy Bridge, would be
    your "sweet spot".

    Intel Core i5-2500K Sandy Bridge 3.3GHz (3.7GHz Turbo Boost) 95W Quad-Core $220
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115072

    Example of a cheap motherboard for the 2500K. The $220 processor plus $105
    motherboard, equals the pricing of the Q9650 and keeping your current motherboard.
    I only picked this motherboard, to get a price - it might not be the
    "best one".

    ASRock Z68 PRO3 LGA 1155 Intel Z68 $105
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157251

    To replace the 2x1GB of DDR2 RAM you've got, 2x1GB of DDR3 costs from
    $20 to $30 or so. What you'd be checking for here, is a product where
    the customer reviews don't report a lot of "dead on arrival" sticks.
    This one is CAS8, while the "regular" ones are CAS9 (really, no difference at all).
    So just pick a $20 set, where the customer reviews don't report dead ones.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231205

    So maybe $345 or so total, to change generations, go LGA1155 and 2500K.

    *******

    Games need a video card. I recommend combing through the benchmark charts,
    to find something with good price/performance. If you own specific games,
    finding which brand of video card they might like, might also give you
    more value from your purchase. (The 3870 is near the bottom of this
    chart - some of the other charts in this series may be of more value to
    you. I'm not even sure what the metric is here. And that's a problem
    with the Tomshardware charts, is getting even a whiff of details about
    their testing. If this chart was "Price/Performance", we'd have a better
    idea. Maybe this is some kind of average frame rate ?)

    http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2011-gaming-graphics-charts/Enthusiast-Index,2674.html

    The 3870 doesn't do too bad on this one. Frame rate 30.1 FPS. For $200
    you get 83.60 FPS. The benchmark may have been done with a high end CPU,
    to guarantee the video cards form the comparison. So we could pretend
    3x improvement for $200, for GPU-limited games. If we take clock rates
    on the CPU, take 13/10 for the generation switch, times 3.3/2.5 for
    the clock rates, a 2500K for $345 gives at least (minimum) 1.7x, and
    more if the game has good multi-threading and makes good usage of the
    quad cores.

    http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2011-gaming-graphics-charts/Call-of-Juarez-Gamer,2671.html

    I'd get better value from an AMD build, but then the CPU couldn't match
    the 2500K.

    The tradeoff here, is the "dribbling upgrade" problem. If you go too
    cheap, you end up not much better off than you were before. The LGA775
    processors were expensive enough, that once you buy one, it probably
    isn't worthwhile upgrading. The price curve was steep enough in the
    first place, to "push you down the curve". The same thing happened
    to me, when I was pricing out LGA775, and I ended up in much the same
    mess (no quad for me).

    Before buying the $200 video card, you'll want to check out the
    power supply requirements. Post back your proposed purchase plan,
    a list of what the new hardware config is, the make and model number
    of the power supply, for some comments. There's no point doing that
    yet, until you decide what your next step is.

    Maybe you can shave $100 off the thing, going AMD, and it would still
    be good enough. But I'm probably not even near the price range you
    had in mind.

    Have fun,
    Paul
     
    Paul, Oct 18, 2011
    #2
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  3. grylion

    grylion Guest


    Hi Paul,
    Thanks for the info.
    It sounds as if you know your stuff, extremely helpful.
    The dribbling upgrade is the problem.
    Thats a lot of considering for me to do.
    I found the parts for the original build (Oct 2008) in my e-mails.
    I hope they are readable.


    Asus P5K Premium/WiFi-AP Intel P35 (Socket 775) PCI-Express DDR2
    Motherboard 1 £104.99
    Corsair HX 520W ATX2.2 Modular SLI Compliant PSU (CMPSU-520HXUK) 1 £59.99
    Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition SP3 - OEM (N09-02215) 1 £50.99
    Intel Pentium Dual-Core E5200 "LGA775 Core 2" 2.50GHz (800FSB) -
    Retail 1 £49.99
    Gainward ATI Radeon HD 3850 Pro 512MB GDDR3 TV-Out/Dual DVI/HDMI
    (PCI-Express) - Retail 1 £49.99
    Western Digital Caviar Blue 500GB SATA-II 16MB Cache - OEM
    (WD5000AAKS) 1 £41.99
    Antec Three Hundred Ultimate Gaming Case 1 £39.99
    Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2x1GB) DDR2 PC2-6400C4 800MHz Dual Channel Kit
    (BL2KIT12864AA80A) 1 £29.99
    Western Digital Caviar Blue 80GB SATA-II 8MB Cache - OEM (WD800AAJS) 1
    £23.99
    Asus DRW-20B1ST 20x DVD±RW SATA Dual Layer Rewriter (Black) - OEM 1 £14.99

    I also have two e-sata cases connected to the system.
    I keep two backups of films,home movies,photos and all the rest of the
    things that would make you scream if you lost them.

    Cheers Peter
     
    grylion, Oct 19, 2011
    #3
  4. grylion

    Paul Guest

    You have the UK version of power supply, in which the difference, might
    be that it runs from 220V. This is the quickest reference I could find.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139001

    If you look at the picture of the label, it has three 12V rails,
    and a combined rating of 12V @ 40A total. You'd really want
    a detailed rail split, to understand if the splitting it into
    three 18 amp groups, causes any problems. (It could be 18A for
    CPU, 18A for motherboard/hard drive/fans/CDROM, and 18A for PCI Express video.)

    Without doing more research, I could *assume* one 18A output
    drives the two 2x3 PCI Express video card connectors.

    So say I was pretending to buy a $200 GTX 560. First, I'd check
    what connectors it needed. In the upper right of this photo,
    there are two 2x3 connectors.

    http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/14-130-661-Z04?$S640W$

    Now, to complicate matters, there are two versions of card.
    GTX 560 and GTX 560 TI. The latter one, doesn't have a portion
    of the GPU turned off (for yield issues). That's why you see some
    cards listed as "336" and some as "384". That means for
    power estimation purposes, I should try and find a 560 TI and
    see what the power is like on that.

    http://www.gpureview.com/show_cards.php?card1=657&card2=641

    Here is a page with some power numbers.

    http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/display/geforce-gtx-560-ti_4.html#sect0

    We can use the table here. 5.5A on one 2x3 and 5.7A on the second 2x3,
    for a total of 11.2A. And that is coming from the third 18A output.
    The 2.1A "slot" loading, comes from the "motherboard" 12V output.
    We have a total of 40A to work with, and 40-11.2-2.1 = 26.7 remaining
    for a CPU, hard drives, fans etc. Even if you bought a 130W
    processor, that would be 130W/0.9 * (1/12V) = 12A for the processor
    (the 0.9 being 90% Vcore conversion efficiency estimated).
    So the 26.7A minus 12A, still leaves some margin. A couple hard
    drives won't use up all of the remainder.

    http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/video/geforce-gtx560-ti/gtx560_plines.png

    So it looks like a $200 video card won't need a supply upgrade. At
    least, you have the modular cables for it (a couple 2x3's). A cabling
    mismatch, is a "lead indicator" you've got the wrong supply. You still
    need to do a little arithmetic though, to see what kind of margin
    is available.

    CPU 12V output 12A (if you had a 130W processor, less if it's a 95W one)
    Motherboard 2.1 + 1.0 + 1.5 + 0.5 = video_slot + HDD + CDROM + fans = 5.1A
    PCIE 2x3's 11.2A
    Total 28.3A (of 40A available)

    That's 340W from the 12V loading, throw in another 60W for other rails,
    and you're looking at 400W or so worst case. A real system will be using
    less than that (some processors come in significantly below
    their TDP rating). To give an example, I have a 65W processor here
    that draws 36W flat out (100% CPU). These estimates can be a
    little pessimistic, and real numbers will be lower. The pessimistic
    estimates, are to make sure the power supply is big enough.

    HTH,
    Paul
     
    Paul, Oct 19, 2011
    #4
  5. grylion

    grylion Guest


    Thanks again Paul
    You have given me plenty to consider.
    best wishes
    Peter
     
    grylion, Oct 19, 2011
    #5
  6. grylion

    Paul Guest

    You can do this incrementally.

    Buy the $200 video card first, and try it out. If the
    games are "GPU limited", that will fix it. The "oomph"
    will be the new GPU.

    If the games are CPU limited (like a game of chess would be),
    then a better CPU would help. The pentium dual core 2.5GHz is
    already relatively powerful, so to make a worthwhile upgrade,
    you're going to have to spend a bit of money. The Q9650 is
    nice, but expensive. And the E8600 isn't that much of an
    improvement. Going with another motherboard and cheap RAM,
    opens more possibilities. Use the cpubenchmark page and
    the "price/performance" button, to review processors which
    are considered especially good at price performance.

    http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html#cpuvalue

    Any more questions, post back.

    Paul
     
    Paul, Oct 19, 2011
    #6
  7. grylion

    grylion Guest

    Hi all,
    I am out of touch with the present tech specs but I just want an opinion.
    I have an Asus PK5 E with a dual core 2.5 pentium processor.
    Also it has an ATI radeon 3800 video card.
    2 g ram
    window xp
    Would it be practicle to upgrade this setup? If so any suggestions?
    My kids have started gaming and want a bit more oomph
    I dont want to spend a fortune on this as I use my laptop most of the time
    and have abandoned this desktop to the kids.
    Cheers Peter UK
    Asus P5K Premium/WiFi-AP Intel P35 (Socket 775) PCI-Express DDR2
    Motherboard 1 £104.99
    Corsair HX 520W ATX2.2 Modular SLI Compliant PSU (CMPSU-520HXUK) 1 £59.99
    Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition SP3 - OEM (N09-02215) 1 £50.99
    Intel Pentium Dual-Core E5200 "LGA775 Core 2" 2.50GHz (800FSB) -
    Retail 1 £49.99
    Gainward ATI Radeon HD 3850 Pro 512MB GDDR3 TV-Out/Dual DVI/HDMI
    (PCI-Express) - Retail 1 £49.99
    Western Digital Caviar Blue 500GB SATA-II 16MB Cache - OEM
    (WD5000AAKS) 1 £41.99
    Antec Three Hundred Ultimate Gaming Case 1 £39.99
    Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2x1GB) DDR2 PC2-6400C4 800MHz Dual Channel Kit
    (BL2KIT12864AA80A) 1 £29.99
    Western Digital Caviar Blue 80GB SATA-II 8MB Cache - OEM (WD800AAJS) 1
    £23.99
    Asus DRW-20B1ST 20x DVD±RW SATA Dual Layer Rewriter (Black) - OEM 1
    £14.99

    Hi there all,
    I am going to go for a video card upgrade to start and take it from there.
    Gigabyte GeForce GTX 560Ti OC 1024MB GDDR5
    Cheers Peter
     
    grylion, Nov 21, 2011
    #7
  8. grylion

    grylion Guest

    Hi there all,
    I am going to go for a video card upgrade to start and take it from there.
    Gigabyte GeForce GTX 560Ti OC 1024MB GDDR5
    Cheers Peter
     
    grylion, Nov 21, 2011
    #8
  9. grylion

    grylion Guest

    Sorry I seem to have made a mess of my previous post.
    I do not use these groups much and do not know how to edit the post.
    peter
     
    grylion, Nov 21, 2011
    #9
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