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What inkjet printer prints the best text?

Discussion in 'PC Hardware' started by B. Schneier, Dec 15, 2007.

  1. A couple of things:

    1) this posting is misattributed. I did not write any of the text which
    was quoted below my name (which I have quoted below).

    2) If this is a reply to one of my postings, it might be helpful to know
    which posting it refers to by having at least a bit of the original
    posting it is responding to...

    Art
     
    Arthur Entlich, Dec 28, 2007
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  2. B. Schneier

    CBFalconer Guest

    Arthur Entlich wrote: *** and top-posted. Fixed ***
    Posters are connected to their quotes by the number of '>' at the
    start of lines. That number should be one larger than the count in
    the attribution line.

    In addition proper posting will help greatly. I.e. do not
    top-post. Do snip properly. Read the following URLs, which will
    describe the conventions properly.

    Please do not top-post. Your answer belongs after (or intermixed
    with) the quoted material to which you reply, after snipping all
    irrelevant material. I fixed this one. See the following links:

    --
    <http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html>
    <http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html>
    <http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html>
    <http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/> (taming google)
    <http://members.fortunecity.com/nnqweb/> (newusers)
     
    CBFalconer, Dec 28, 2007
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  3. B. Schneier

    kony Guest

    yes and no. Since I snipped out what you wrote, the rest
    was consistent with usenet notation using ">" symbol. So
    really the thing I omitted was "<snip>" to show something
    was missing.

    If you have a proper newsreader, or even Google groups or
    Outhouse Express, it will show which was replied to, but you
    should know already, it was the post in which you tried to
    get on your high horse and make a speech instead of
    continuing the same (sub)topic.
     
    kony, Dec 28, 2007
  4. I have read this thread through, and what I read was that Tony indicated
    a mixture of his personal experience, the experiences of those he deals
    with on a professional basis, and his informed opinion. Was it without
    bias? No, we all have personal biases, including you. Was it informed,
    level headed and based upon reasonable judgment? Yes, it appeared to
    be. Did it come from a source I have come to respect and trust? Yes.
    Do I fully agree with the conclusions reached? Not necessarily.

    Am I (or you) right and he wrong? No, because much of this issue is
    contextual, and personal. Is a pipe wrench a good tool or a bad one?
    Well, it really depends upon what you plan to do with it. I wouldn't
    try gardening with one.

    To imply Vista is the worst thing to happen to PCs is as absurd as
    stating it is manna from heaven. For people who bought it loaded on a
    system that was appropriately powered for it, and who were able to use
    their computer within the context of newer peripherals, it offers some
    neat features unavailable on other PC operating systems. For others, it
    is an evolutionary process that will eventually lead to some valuable
    capabilities once the other parts are added to it either by Microsoft
    as they release service packs, or by third party developers. For some,
    it has been a hassle and unstable, or a waste of time to learn, and they
    have gone back to XP, or elsewhere, and may return to a Microsoft OS if
    they get it better next time, or may have permanetly left Microsoft OSs.
    Again, its contextual. If what you are saying was true uniformly then
    the backlash would have been much more extreme, and Microsoft wouldn't
    has sold as many copies of the unbundled software as they did, and the
    market penetration would have been much lower. Yes, some people were
    displeased with their user experience with Vista. Some people are also
    quite content with it.
    Whether you believe me or not is not actually relevant, but that's where
    issues of trust and reputation come into play. People who know me, my
    associations and affiliations know this is a credible statement and why
    it is.
    You are re-writing history, with a very strong spin to make your "facts"
    fit you re-write.

    In fact, here is what Tony stated about the links:

    Now, if you are speaking about CBFalconer's compulsion about Usenet
    etiquette regarding where the message should appear relative to the
    quotes, I'm sorry, but I consider that so much nonsense and quite
    honestly, when people start griping about where information is within a
    message it tends (for me) to discount how well considered other things
    they post are, because like many things, the "truth" is shades of gray
    and there are valid reasons for posting both ways, and the old
    established way of doing something doesn't necessarily make it the most
    appropriate today.

    Platform wars are a waste of time and energy because, if it was all so
    cut and dry, the "best one" would be the only one in use. Instead we
    have numerous OSs in use, and most users swear by the one they use most.
    CBFalconer has presented some interesting links, and they are worthwhile
    considering. His editorial point of view however is also biased in some
    of the statements he makes which may not help his argument. And lastly,
    I have no way to confirm the accuracy of the content of the links he
    provided, so I can read them but I cannot validate the veracity of the
    claims.

    In terms of sheer enthusiasm and user experience Apple should probably
    be the number one selling OS (since Linux is basically free, it is
    harder to classify by enthusiasm, since people often like free things
    simply because they are free) yet it isn't. Maybe that's because things
    just aren't as two dimensional as you would like them to be.

    Yes, I've read over the links (I haven't read each one fully, because
    they would take an hour or more to complete and I have other things to
    do) They admittedly raise some important questions. Some of the
    content I think unfairly blames Microsoft for things that the whole
    industry is up to and which Microsoft either went along for the ride or
    perhaps thought they could forward new media with. I happen to agree
    that much was probably poorly thought out, but I also believe that in
    the end, market forces will dictate what it is people hold dear and
    important. Microsoft can't afford to alienate more OS users when other
    (cheaper) options are available.

    I certainly have not ever attempted to talk anyone into moving to the
    Vista platform, and I have probably talked more people who have asked me
    out of it than anything else. Like I said, I didn't think we needed it
    5 years ago and my opinion about that hasn't really changed, but that
    doesn't mean it isn't useful for some people and won't be moreso as SP1
    is released.

    If you are as correct about Vista as you assume, it will be a bit shot
    in the arm to Apple and to Linux.
    To a great degree computer buyers have become more savvy and less
    tolerant of buying broken first attempts, and so it should be. We are
    demanding better initial releases, and we are more jaded about the hype
    we are told about what the newer products can and will do. I don't
    disagree that software can't be sold on what it may be after it is
    "fixed", but instead must be evaluated on what it is now.

    I think you are again rewriting history. I didn't jump in until you
    began to deride Tony on a personal level and attack his character. Even
    CBFalconer agreed your approach was inappropriate.

    Further, there is much gray area here and the discussion was fast moving
    into a platform war, which often just becomes a mud slinging contest.
    Your approach and manner didn't help to keep the conversation on the
    higher road.
    Methinks you read more into this than was here. As mentioned above, he
    did address them, although apparently not to your satisfaction. One
    could read "conspiracy theory" into the links provided if one was so
    inclined.
    Maybe not to you, because you seem to prefer to ignore "the obvious"
    which I'm not so sure is a vast improvement. Further, since this is a
    public set of forums, what may be obvious to you (and I don't know you
    from Adam, so I'm not sure what is obvious to you and what isn't) may
    not be obvious to someone else reading this, and perhaps dialogue in a
    public forum should be more inclusive.
    You play a slippery game of debate which I'm not sure I want to continue
    in. Below are some of your statements, which sound pretty general to
    me. I don't think most people who rejected Vista did so because they
    didn't like the DRM or worried about future premium content, or even
    that it may have been slowed down by searching for DRM cues, people who
    left Vista didn't like the interface, couldn't get peripherals or older
    software to run correctly, actually pretty obvious types of problems.

    You have a very annoying habit that when someone writes something other
    than what you think you should have read, you still assume it is what
    you expected or wish to argue, and therefore you don't respond to what
    is actually there, but what you wish to have been there. That makes it
    pretty hard to carry on a discussion. I don't need you to reinterpret
    (incorrectly, I might add) what I just wrote. What I indicated is what
    I meant, thank you.
    Who said you were. I said, as has Tony, that it works well for some
    people. If anything, I said that for many people Vista wasn't
    compelling enough for them to buy into it.
    No, some people tried it and like it, some don't. Some people have
    specific uses for it because it holds features not found on other OSs to
    date. Some people who would like to use those feature won't because
    other aspects of Vista are otherwise not working for them.
    I have no idea what the above sentence means, since I have stated from
    the beginning that one needs to select the appropriate OS for one's
    individual needs and that Vista is workable for some and not others
    based upon what people require of it. I believe Tony stated the same thing.
    You are reading different postings that I am. I quoted above what Tony
    stated.
    I don't even know what to say to this. How ANYONE can say I *defend*
    Vista after what I have written is beyond me. I defend people's right
    to use the OS if it works well for them, and I defend people having the
    right to have the opinion that it works well for them. I defend the
    right of people to not use Vista and to not like using Vista and even to
    point out the problems with Vista. What I do not defend is the right to
    call people stupid and bullsh*tters and liars because they have personal
    experiences and views that don't reflect yours.
    The only problem with this statement is that it needs to have its
    corollary as well then... if a product can't stand on it's own merit
    no extra effort is needed to denigrate and malign it, and doing so
    should raise a red flag... neither statement makes sense - debate is
    about dialogue about the merits and deficiencies of an idea or concept.
    I'm in no position to argue the so-called facts in the links because I'm
    not an expert in these issues, so I have no context to base the veracity
    of those arguments. CBFalconer didn't argue them either, he simply
    presented several links, which is easy to do. He probably doesn't know
    if they are accurate or not either. I'm not arguing for or against
    those links, I'm arguing that some people have found Vista a workable
    solution for their OS needs, as is evident by the number of people who
    use it without major issues. I tell most people to stay with XP if
    that's what they've been using. I don't tell people to upgrade anything
    if what they have is working for them, be it a OS, computer, printer, or
    car or diet.

    Your assumption that because I believe that a person I have grown to
    trust states that he has had a positive experience with a product and
    knows of other who have similar experiences somehow taints my ability to
    reason is just insulting.

    Art
     
    Arthur Entlich, Dec 28, 2007
  5. Actually, everything I wrote was missing.
    Strangely, having been on newsgroups, and before that, bulletin boards
    for something like 20 years now, until this message, where you removed
    the full text of my posting, the assorted BBS software and newsreaders
    I've used have functioned perfectly well for me. I have been able to
    read and reply to postings, quoted messages, etc, without difficulty.

    You may think that your posting is worthy of my tracking down the
    original posting you are referring to, but I don't agree.

    Art
     
    Arthur Entlich, Dec 28, 2007
  6. B. Schneier

    TJ Guest

    Do you have any idea how much self-appointed Usenet etiquette police
    annoy me? Never mind answering. I know you feel a Noble Calling to fix
    all that is "wrong" with Usenet, and that you don't really care about
    what annoys me, only what annoys YOU.

    TJ
     
    TJ, Dec 28, 2007
  7. B. Schneier

    measekite Guest

    your stated reason

    CBFalconer wrote:

    Arthur Entlich wrote: *** and top-posted. Fixed ***



    kony wrote:



    If you can't bother to continue the previous conversation by posting in context, your post is wasted.

    Not for


    Show a little effort, or you have only shown you want to sidetrack the topic at hand.


    ha ha ha


    Is this seriously what you consider reasonable discussion, not replying to the context but instead making a speach?

    do you mean a sermon



    Sorry, but that is only reasonable in some alternate reality. I may reply to your original post, or may not, but it doesn't excuse your distraction from the topic.



    A couple of things: 1) this posting is misattributed. I did not write any of the text which was quoted below my name (which I have quoted below). 2) If this is a reply to one of my postings, it might be helpful to know which posting it refers to by having at least a bit of the original posting it is responding to...



    Posters are connected to their quotes by the number of '&gt;' at the start of lines. That number should be one larger than the count in the attribution line. In addition proper posting will help greatly. I.e. do not top-post. Do snip properly. Read the following URLs, which will describe the conventions properly. Please do not top-post. Your answer belongs after (or intermixed with) the quoted material to which you reply, after snipping all irrelevant material. I fixed this one. See the following links:
     
    measekite, Dec 28, 2007
  8. B. Schneier

    measekite Guest

    kony wrote:

    On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 04:26:00 GMT, Arthur Entlich &lt;&gt; wrote:



    A couple of things: 1) this posting is misattributed. I did not write any of the text which was quoted below my name (which I have quoted below).



    yes and no. Since I snipped out what you wrote, the rest was consistent with usenet notation using "&gt;" symbol. So really the thing I omitted was "&lt;snip&gt;" to show something was missing.

    Do you think anybody cares about usenet notation symbols from the dark ages of computing.






    2) If this is a reply to one of my postings, it might be helpful to know which posting it refers to by having at least a bit of the original posting it is responding to...



    If you have a proper newsreader, or even Google groups or Outhouse Express, it will show which was replied to, but you should know already, it was the post in which you tried to get on your high horse and make a speech instead of continuing the same (sub)topic.
     
    measekite, Dec 28, 2007
  9. B. Schneier

    measekite Guest

    I do not share this opinion. He is in the business; therefore not
    totally impartial.
     
    measekite, Dec 28, 2007
  10. B. Schneier

    measekite Guest

    me too

    TJ wrote: CBFalconer wrote:
    Arthur Entlich wrote: *** and top-posted.&nbsp; Fixed ***

    &lt;Arthur's contribution snipped&gt;

    Posters are connected to their quotes by the number of '&gt;' at the
    start of lines.&nbsp; That number should be one larger than the count in
    the attribution line.

    In addition proper posting will help greatly.&nbsp; I.e. do not
    top-post.&nbsp; Do snip properly.&nbsp; Read the following URLs, which will
    describe the conventions properly.

    Please do not top-post.&nbsp; Your answer belongs after (or intermixed
    with) the quoted material to which you reply, after snipping all
    irrelevant material.&nbsp; I fixed this one.&nbsp; See the following links:

    Do you have any idea how much self-appointed Usenet etiquette police annoy me? Never mind answering. I know you feel a Noble Calling to fix all that is "wrong" with Usenet, and that you don't really care about what annoys me, only what annoys YOU.

    TJ
     
    measekite, Dec 28, 2007
  11. B. Schneier

    Burt Guest

    TJ - You read my mind! Between "officer" CBF, "angry authority" Kony, and
    "OEM ink uber alles" Moosetripe, you could spend your entire day reading
    nonsensical drivel on this NG. Thank the lord for the killfile!!!!!!!!!!!
     
    Burt, Dec 28, 2007
  12. B. Schneier

    Frank Guest

    measekite wrote:


    OMG!!! You really are a stupid piece of dumb shit aren't you!
    Frank
     
    Frank, Dec 28, 2007
  13. B. Schneier

    Frank Guest

    measekite wrote:


    SPAMMER!!!
    Frank
     
    Frank, Dec 28, 2007
  14. B. Schneier

    kony Guest

    I never asked you to track down anything, it was you who
    made the comment. I was further helpful in suggesting you
    use your newsreader like everyone else to see what I'd
    replied to.
     
    kony, Dec 29, 2007
  15. B. Schneier

    kony Guest

    .... which is subjective, as I already wrote.

    Incorrect. He cannot provide hearsay as to a comprehensive
    analysis of a 3rd party's use of a product. It is quite
    likely they do not come to him and converse about this exact
    topic so he can report on their sum experiences with Vista,
    or much of anything else for that matter. Instead he is
    introducing misleading, "supposed" evidence which cannot be
    countered merely because it is worthless.

    Instead what we do have is the largest backlash against any
    version of windows ever, as seen by many online polls. He,
    you, and I can all find links to this information. This is
    fact, not 3rd party hearsay.


    You threw the word "informed" out there as a measure of
    bullshit. How about sticking to clear facts instead of
    fancying yourself a colorful writer? He offered an opinion.
    He's entitled to one. That is subjective and does not make
    it rational to discount all the opinions of others, not mine
    but those easily found by web searches, even linked earlier
    in the thread. He choose to discount all counterevidence by
    selectively ignoring and declaring it irrelevant
    (effectually, I do now forget the exact word used) as if he
    can ignore evidence.

    Not necessarily applicable, because some have more ability
    than others to isolate any personal bias from a pursuit of
    truth. Some people stop and consider whether they are
    writing something subjective, and do a bit deeper digging.
    That is what the links CBFalconer, or the several online
    polls, as well as other sources of information provide.

    Incredibly enough, even Tony himself conceded there were
    issues people are supposed to wait to have addressed, as if
    we are supposed to judge the fitness of a product not based
    on what it is now, but what it *might* become, someday.
    Another subjective opinion, that if an issue doesn't bother
    or effect Tony, then it's ok for everyone else too.

    I'm terribly sorry to have to write it, but you are either
    deluded or intentionally trying to pervert truth. Writing
    pages of text about how right you think you are doesn't
    further a conversation, it still ignores the points already
    made which is anything except the persuit of truth.
     
    kony, Dec 29, 2007
  16. B. Schneier

    kony Guest

    Yes it was, because you replied to my post but didn't
    continue the conversation, instead making a speech. I
    replied to your speech post but snipped out the speech body
    because it was already out of context, since your speech did
    not carry on the prior conversation.
    Obviously not, you can't even go back one posting in a
    thread to see what you replied to. So you're basically
    admitting it's either difficult for you, impossible for you,
    or you CHOOSE not to do it (making all your whining a lot of
    nonsense).

    Since you can't navigate usenet even after 20 years of
    BBS/etc, here's a link to Google Groups where you can see
    where your initial post strayed from the subtopic:

    http://groups.google.com/group/alt....&lnk=st&q=author%3Akony&#doc_79d81afafc1156b2

    (or) http://tinyurl.com/2pddog

    If you need more help using Google or your newsreader you
    can search for that help as well.
     
    kony, Dec 29, 2007
  17. B. Schneier

    kony Guest

    You are an idiot.

    Backlash has to do with real use problems.

    You pretend you are intelligent but are not. There is no
    great body of text you could write that makes a problem
    disappear.
     
    kony, Dec 29, 2007
  18. B. Schneier

    Tony Guest

    I have snipped everything from this post simply so that I can attempt to
    recover what I consider to be a thread with many innuendos and
    misunderstandings.

    The post I originally replied to included the following extract.

    "Of course a system that uses Vista is a crap design in the first
    place."

    And was followed by some links.

    My reply was, and I apologise for reposting this in full.

    "All of the links above are reasonably old in terms of the release cycle of a
    new OS. Vista has improved immeasurably in the past few months and when SP1
    comes out in the new year I suspect we will see better performance as well as
    other improvements. Your comment about Vista reminds me of similar comments
    about XP and previous versions of Windows during the early stages of release.
    In many cases the end result was a pretty reliable OS (Windows98SE and Windows
    XP with SP2 for eaxmple). Modern OS' are immensely complex and anybody who
    thinks they can be released in their final totally stable version is dreaming.
    All of the negatives in the above links have been refuted by people just as
    expert as the authors. It seems to me that the links have been "cherry picked",
    in other words chosen because they are all negative. There are many positive
    links about Vista. I have been using Vista for many months with absolutely no
    issues as of yet and am looking forward to SP1. I also lived with the Windows
    98 XP iterations which resulted in a stable computing experience for me.
    On a more specific note the first link is well worth a read, clearly the author
    has an agenda. He says that "This document looks purely at the cost of the
    technical portions of Vista's content protection" and immediately follows this
    with comments that are critical of the OS with little or no relevance to the
    subject matter."

    I have read my reply several times and cannot for the life of me see why it
    upset you.
    I was attempting to point out that an implication that Vista is "crap" is an
    extreme point of view and that the links that were provided did not convince
    me. I have read most of the material despite you suggesting that I have not.
    There are many on-line articles that express the view that Vista is not "crap".
    I have not provided any links myself because I suspect that would result in
    debate about the expertise and bias or lack of bias that the authors have. It
    seems to me that would be a pointless exercise. Suffice it to say that any of
    us with an interest in this subject could in minutes find any number of links
    that would support any view we happen to hold.
    You have suggested that I am not "thick skinned", what that has to do with
    anything is beyond me and I believe I can debate without being defensive
    (another thing you have acused me of without any justification).

    I guess the real concern I have is that you keep moving the goal posts, subtle
    changes between several posts have occurred which distort the meaning. This is
    a common ploy in debates, but not at all difficult to spot.

    I have been moved by some people that are "supporting" me but that is not what
    this is about either.

    The post I answered first was a blanket statement made as if it is a fact. It
    is undeniably not a fact, it is an opinion. I expressed an opinion that it was
    not a fact and provided some personal views and experience to that end.

    I have no agenda with Vista other than that I want it to be a good OS and I
    have customers that absolutely need it to be so. Fortunately none have yet had
    any serious problems.
    I do not recommend operating systems (and only recommend applications that are
    printer specific and highly specialised) to my customers (I referred to the
    reason for that earlier in the thread) but when friends ask me what they should
    buy I listen carefully to their needs and often recommend against Vista at this
    time, not because it is useless but because it offers them no advantage over XP
    and we would agree that Vista has yet to become a mature OS.

    You have accused Art Entlich, quite rudely, of some things that you cannot
    possibly justify. I suggest that you read his posts more carefully and search
    for his name on the internet. You will find that he has helped thousands of
    people over the years for no payment and has a well publicised agenda to assist
    in making this planet a fit place to live for future generations.

    There is no fan club here, quite simply mutual respect. Art and I sometimes do
    not agree; polite disagreement is wonderful otherwise human beings would not be
    sentient creatures. Without wishing to inflame this discussion further I wonder
    if you could practice the same. In other words, accept that some people will
    not agree with you, accept that debate without becoming personal is positive
    and that being offensive is counterproductive to your arguments and the real
    subject of the debate.

    I have a concern that this post will cause you to react once more with
    invective, I think that would be a great pity since you are clearly not a
    stupid person. It would be terrific if you were to think about engaging in
    debate without abuse. I have not been a part of this thread for several days,
    that was quite deliberate because I wanted to see things calm down. Maybe you
    should consider doing something similar.

    Tony
     
    Tony, Dec 29, 2007
  19. B. Schneier

    TJ Guest

    And you are becoming more troll-like by the minute. You resort to
    name-calling when people refuse to knuckle under to your opinion. That
    is hardly intelligent behavior. It is troll behavior, the "weapon" of
    someone who knows he can't win an a debate with the merits of his
    position.(Note carefully that I am not calling you a troll. I am saying
    you are exhibiting troll-like behavior.)

    Your bias is anti-Microsoft - that much is abundantly clear. That bias
    is so strong that you are unwilling to look at anything Microsoft
    produces with an objective eye. No, not unwilling, unable. Microsoft
    could produce the perfect OS, and you would still call it crap.

    I've heard this kind of anti-Microsoft drivel many times over the years.
    As a Linux user, I've spewed the same thing once in a while myself. The
    thing is, it was almost always unwarranted. I think Microsoft produces
    the worst OS of any of "the big three," and I don't quite understand why
    thinking people use it out of choice. But they are entitled to their
    opinions, as I am entitled to mine. Doesn't make them idiots. Misguided
    perhaps, but not idiots.

    There is something I'd like to know, something you've carefully avoided
    mentioning. Which OS do *you* use, and has it been trouble-free for
    everybody who's used it? If there is such a thing, I'd like to look into it.

    TJ
     
    TJ, Dec 29, 2007
  20. B. Schneier

    measekite Guest

    Because it does the simple things poorly but good enough and you do not
    have to have a constant chase for drivers everytime you go buy a new
    piece of hardware and because if you buy a dell or a sony etc it comes
    preinstalled and everything works. Plus most people use it at work.
    There is more formal support for it. There is more documentation (books
    at stores) for it.

    And yes Linux is more efficient and an all around better OS for people
    that know about that stuff. Also the common user will have not problem
    if a tech person properly sets it up and they do not continually buy new
    hardware and desire new software all of the time.
    There is a find line between some who are misguided and some who are
    idiots. Many make postings on this forum.
    No OS including Linux is trouble free. If there was there would be no
    forums.
     
    measekite, Dec 29, 2007
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