Why should I need a new bios to run a new core?

Discussion in 'Abit' started by Wes Newell, Mar 12, 2005.

  1. Wes Newell

    Wes Newell Guest

    Why should I need a new bios to run a new core? The new cpu has the same
    pinout as the old ones. The control is the same. The size of the die
    doesn't matter. The voltage doesn't matter (IOW's a new core at 1.4v will
    run at 1.5v). The name shouldn't matter. So why won't it run? What's the
    technical reason? Anybody? Has Abit decided just not to run it if it
    doesn't recognize the new CPUID? Or is the original bios just screwed up?
     
    Wes Newell, Mar 12, 2005
    #1
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  2. Why should I need a new bios to run a new core?
    Never heard about "microcode"?

    It's needed for the bios to recognise the CPU. Without that, the CPU won't
    even exist for the Bios.

    If you know the microcode, you can add yourself to the BIOS, using
    Bios-hacking software, but you better know what you're doing, or you can
    make your board unusable.

    I'm not knowledgable about the procedure; I've only seen it being done once,
    some time ago. The name of the program used was CBROM, I think...

    Man, I'm getting OOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLDDDDDDDDDD!

    :)

    HTH, Wes,
     
    Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio, Mar 12, 2005
    #2
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  3. Wes Newell

    Conor Guest

    The BIOS has a CPUID lookup table that stores memory timings and other
    things for each CPUID.
     
    Conor, Mar 12, 2005
    #3
  4. Wes Newell

    Bill Guest

    Seems like a replay of Socket 7/Super Socket 7 to me.

    Bill
     
    Bill, Mar 13, 2005
    #4
  5. Wes Newell

    Wes Newell Guest

    Yes, I have, but don't know what it's got to do with this.
    Huh! It's used for patches. I don't care if the board knows what cpu I
    have or not. The board in the sig line just saya Unknown CPU.
    Well, I don't know much about it either, but there's this.

    http://www.realworldtech.com/forums...PostNum=2527&Thread=1&entryID=35446&roomID=11

    I still don't think this is the problem as I haven't heard of other boards
    having the problems with the new cores. maybe the original Abit bios was
    just screwed up to start with.
     
    Wes Newell, Mar 13, 2005
    #5
  6. Wes Newell

    Wes Newell Guest

    What? AFAIK, the memory timings are stiored in the ram SPd data. CPUID
    shouldn't mean a thing. It doesn't on the board below.
     
    Wes Newell, Mar 13, 2005
    #6
  7. Wes Newell

    Wes Newell Guest

    I guess I don't remember this one unless you're talking about the FSB
    speed change. But that's not the problem here.
     
    Wes Newell, Mar 13, 2005
    #7
  8. Wes Newell

    JefN Guest

    | Why should I need a new bios to run a new core? The new cpu has the same
    | pinout as the old ones. The control is the same. The size of the die
    | doesn't matter. The voltage doesn't matter (IOW's a new core at 1.4v will
    | run at 1.5v). The name shouldn't matter. So why won't it run? What's the
    | technical reason? Anybody? Has Abit decided just not to run it if it
    | doesn't recognize the new CPUID? Or is the original bios just screwed up?
    |

    Hi Wes -

    Is your post in regards to the Prescott core issue on Socket 478
    motherboards?

    If this is the case, a CPU Microcode update is the answer and it's the BIOS
    where the CPU microcode lives.

    An interesting article by Chris Quirke sheds some light on this issue:
    http://cquirke.mvps.org/sp2intel.htm

    Jef
     
    JefN, Mar 13, 2005
    #8
  9. Wes Newell

    Bill Guest

    Same pin compatability, but the newer SS7 cpus wouldn't work in a lot of the S7
    boards because of power, multiplier requirements. Since these boards had jumpers for
    those settings they couldn't be made to accomodate the newer cpu's since the jumpers
    weren't physically there. Fast forward to now, those are for the most part, handled
    by the bios, so a news bios is required to make a newer cpu work properly.

    As a wild ass guess, I suspect there was more involved in going from a Newcastle to
    a Winchester than just a die shrink and the older Abit bios can't handle it.

    Bill
     
    Bill, Mar 13, 2005
    #9
  10. Wes Newell

    John Lewis Guest

    For example, for certain die revs of the Prescott, if you do not
    upgrade the BIOS microcode, Windows SP2 install freezes.
    I believe that the size of the L2 cache triggered the bug. It did not
    make itself obvious with the Northwood processors which work
    fine with the SP2 install.

    It appears that the bug was in the processor (not M$$'s code)
    and fixed with a microcode change. Microcode is loaded
    to the processor by BIOS on bootup and can be used to
    work around many silicon bugs that would otherwise need
    a mask revision. Clever....

    John Lewis
     
    John Lewis, Mar 13, 2005
    #10
  11. Wes Newell

    Wes Newell Guest

    No, AMD, in particular the AV8 MB. It's hard to believe that the absence
    of a few lines of microcode would stop the cpu from even posting. There
    has to be another problem with the earlier bios. Otherwise how have all
    the other MB's made by others still booted with older bioses and
    winchester cores. I haven't heard of any other boards with this problem.
    Maybe I've missed it. If it's the microcode that is the problem, I'd like
    to know what the problem is, not just that it's the microcode. I'd come
    more believing that the bios just refuses to boot a cpu it doesn't
    recognize by the cpuid. I wouldn't like that, but I could accept that.
     
    Wes Newell, Mar 13, 2005
    #11
  12. Wes Newell

    ned ludd Guest

    Is that claim from personal experience or your interpretation of internet
    gossip?
    This is not a solely Abit problem. Other 939 boards that shipped with pre
    Winchester bioses including the Asus A8V and MSI K8T also apparently needed
    flashing with an updated bios before they recognised the new core (somewhat
    difficult if you don't have access to one of the older CPUs). I'd be
    interested in hearing if anyone has managed to get a MB with pre-Winchester
    bios to post with the new core.
    There is one significant difference between your KT7 and AMD64 boards - the
    memory controller now resides on the CPU die, not the Northbridge and has
    supposedly been revised in the Winchesters. Whether that requires a new Bios
    only AMD or the Bios engineers can tell us.
     
    ned ludd, Mar 13, 2005
    #12
  13. Wes Newell

    0_Qed Guest

    Hello Wes, ... :)

    I wish I could swop you an 'answer' to your query,
    -for-
    a xerox copy of the 'galley' of your "new" book,
    .... but I cant.
    ;_(
    .... "He" made me 'do' that. =honest=. :)

    ................
    <rant mode on>

    A =most^10= interesting query you pose.

    I'd opine that the true answer to your query lies somewhere with ....
    ..
    .. the designer(s) of your hdwr 'cores' ... both ,
    .. the designer(s) of the cpu chip borne microcode for your 'cores' ...
    both,
    .. the designer(s) of any microcode patches "issued" ... any/all
    .. the designer(s) of the BIOS versions involved ... AMD/Intel(basis) and
    Abit(mods)

    The "above" has to be a =long= list of folks ,
    of which,
    I ?doubt? any =one= of "which" ,
    knows the true answer.

    "Jointly",
    some 'group', of the above, might know .
    (hopefully)

    Which 'reasoning' leads me to an additional query ...
    ..wit.
    Isn't there a way to "reach" an Abit 'Rep',
    and ask "of" such an Abit 'Rep', why "this" happened ???

    ???
    Isn't there a 'member' of this Group,
    who holds enuf sway with Abit,
    and,
    who can obtain some reasonable semblance of an <answ> to your <query >
    ???

    The 'current' list of responders have touched on many of the
    possible , root causes ...
    .. "Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio"
    .. Conor
    .. Bill
    .. JefN"
    .. john.dsl
    .. nano.bot
    ;
    but none yet has reached to the "root" cause,
    =and=
    it's "root" solution.

    I'd humbly 'opine' that Abit mite THE place to start ...
    since 'they' =originate= the flash ".bin' DLs
    containing both
    the a) BIOS flash modular code 'bins' , and
    the b) the microcode patches, if/as required.

    Yes,
    a =most= interesting post,
    for "which" my SWAG(S)^100 =wont= provide a true answer.

    I'd truely opine that your <query> does deserve an
    authoritive/definitive answer.

    ................
    <rant mode off>

    Just 'my' $0.02.
    Qed.
     
    0_Qed, Mar 13, 2005
    #13
  14. It's hard to believe that the absence of a few lines of microcode would
    Wes, the problem is that neither you and me know what were the actual
    changes of the core, and how will they translate into machine code
    (microcode). If the new core uses a different syntax, you'll be out of luck
    until the new bios chip comes out, just to mention a small but significant
    detail...

    I've seen a lot worse working with firmware writers...
     
    Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio, Mar 13, 2005
    #14
  15. Wes Newell

    Russ Guest

    yea I was pretty pissed about the whole thing when I bought my AV8 and it
    wouldn't post. Long story short I took 5 days and $17 for an updated bios
    chip. Once it was up and running I pulled the "new" bios chip out and
    plugged in the old one and flashed it as to have a spare.

    That was last fall, you would think any of those first boards would have
    been sold by now. If not they should be fixed before going out the door.

    a crappy situation on Abits part.
     
    Russ, Mar 13, 2005
    #15
  16. Wes Newell

    Wes Newell Guest

    This I hadn't heard. So all MB's required a new bios with the winchester
    core?
    I gave both my KT7 systems away over 2 years ago And i've had an A64
    system for over a year now. At the time, only hammer cores were available.
     
    Wes Newell, Mar 14, 2005
    #16
  17. Wes Newell

    ned ludd Guest

    Seems so. Asus claims to have a work around which will enable the board to
    boot so you can flash the bios. A single memory stick in DIMM_B1 is reputed
    to work. Since the AV8 uses the same VIA chipset it's worth trying.
     
    ned ludd, Mar 14, 2005
    #17
  18. Wes Newell

    Russ Guest

    I have the new A64 set up now too but kept my old KT7, fixed some of the bad
    caps, put it all in a new case, bought a used $50 17" monitor and keep it in
    the back room for the kids or guests to use. It's still a pretty fast
    machine. I stuffed a 1700mhz xp in it few years back.

    The other day I took all my old computer crap, an old Pent Pro 200 (worked),
    some other stuff, games and took it to this used computer store and traded
    it all for a mouse, keyboard and a 15" monitor to go with this old E-machine
    (amd k6-2 450mhz) and will give that to a friend. It took three trips from
    my truck to haul all the old crap in!!! I"m glad to be rid of it all!
     
    Russ, Mar 14, 2005
    #18
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