Will Dell OEM Vista install on another Dell PC?

Discussion in 'Dell' started by Pinger, Mar 14, 2007.

  1. Pinger

    Tom Scales Guest

    But we're not talking about the worker stealing the hamburgers, are we?
    We're talking about the customer paying for one hamburger and stealing four
    more.
     
    Tom Scales, Mar 17, 2007
    #61
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  2. Pinger

    Journey Guest

    Christopher, you said my sentiments in a much more skillful way. I
    really appreciate that. I think my approach can seem to radical, and
    I sometimes say things too strongly based on emotion when in the end
    reason would win out when I give it time. I think one of the reasons
    that the monopolistic nature of operating software remains unregulated
    is that it's hard to come up with a good way to do that.
     
    Journey, Mar 17, 2007
    #62
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  3. Pinger

    Journey Guest

    McDonald's even legitimized stealing of hamburgers. Remember the
    Hamburgler character? <kidding>
     
    Journey, Mar 17, 2007
    #63
  4. The "Students and Teacher" edition of Microsoft Office (now called the
    "Home" edition in Office 2007) allows LEGAL installation on 3 computers.
    It's list price is $149, but it's almost always on sale, usually for
    $119 to $129, but sometimes for $99. That is $35 to $40 per computer
    .... it's very reasonable for what you get in Office. It's less for
    Office (ALL of Office .... not just Word, but the other components as
    well) than you are paying for "Atlantis".

    I simply don't share the "Microsoft is evil" view. No one is holding a
    gun to anyone's head. The decision to use or not use a Microsoft
    product is open to anyone, but the one thing that no one has a right to
    do is to steal it.
     
    Barry Watzman, Mar 17, 2007
    #64
  5. that's your comeback?
    you ignored all of the relevant points.
    but i think we both already know your position on this subject.
    a nail only sees a hammer as a solution.
     
    Christopher Muto, Mar 17, 2007
    #65
  6. Pinger

    Tom Scales Guest

    I thought your analogy fell apart in the first sentence :)

    Ok, I respect your comments on the newsgroup and the help you give others.
    Explain to me in your words why it is OK it steal a software product. Not
    necessarily Windows, because emotions come into that, but any software
    product. Perhaps one from some struggling software developer working
    part-time on it.

    Because the argument is exactly the same whether it is the guy in the garage
    or Microsoft. Just because someone may not like Bill Gates or Microsoft
    doesn't change the argument AT ALL.

    Justify stealing for me.

    Tom
     
    Tom Scales, Mar 17, 2007
    #66
  7. Pinger

    Steve W. Guest

    The original version.

    Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of
    arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid
    in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out,
    and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!"
    --Hunter S. Thompson

    --
    Steve W.
    Near Cooperstown, New York

    "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
    arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to
    skid in sideways, BBQ in one hand, martini in the other, body
    thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming: "WOO HOO what a ride!"
     
    Steve W., Mar 17, 2007
    #67
  8. Pinger

    Journey Guest

    I understand. I like the way Christopheer wrote about it. The focus
    in this thread has been on stealing the software (and I fanned the
    flames with "it's a moral imperative to steal from a monopoly"). There
    are two wrongs here -- stealing and an unregulated monopoly.

    I think I am going to revisit Open Office. I don't use Word, I use
    Atlantis. In the past I wrote a lot of VBA macros using the Office
    object models but I don't need to do that anymore so as a user rather
    than developer Open Office might be good. I was also concerned that
    I'd have questions or problems that I couldn't get "Googled" results
    to aid in resolving it, but maybe there are forums for open source
    that are as helpful.

    Now that I have two desktop PCs, I'd like to try Linux. I have a free
    hard drive space in my P4 desktop. I'd like to install there, and
    maybe rather than a dool boot, I could just change in the bios which
    hard drive boots up. Can anyone out there point me to a good forum
    and / or tell me if that would work, what version of Linux, etc...
    mainly pointers I'd appreciat it.
     
    Journey, Mar 18, 2007
    #68
  9. Pinger

    Journey Guest

    I think in a past lifetime <joking> I was a colonist fighting the laws
    of the British empire which applied to all of us here in America. I
    decided that the laws were not fair, so I joined in the Boston Tea
    Party. It was a blast!

    Then I violated the law again by fighting under George Washington. The
    hardest thing I ever did in my life. Very grueling :)

    And guess what?! We won! Rather than obey the unfair laws the
    British imposed on us, we fought for what was right, and that was the
    right thing to do. The "law" was wrong, and we did something to fight
    against it.

    <end of joke>

    So, what's a powerless little present-day American to do to fight the
    injustices of the world?

    My conclusion: nothing. The forces are too powerful, and whatever I
    might do is very small. I can fight with my 1) vote, and 2) pocket
    book.

    Someone might be able to capitalize on the current situation. Want to
    be the next Dell <insert your last name>? Develop, market, and
    provide _great_ service with a Linux-based package for individuals.
    Sell it very inexpensively. Get publicity. Empasize support is here
    in the U.S. Give a long warranty for free (kind of like when Kia, or
    other new automakers come, they need to give 10 year powertrain
    warranties).

    <end of creative thinking / a little rambling / a renewed desire to
    learn linux!>
     
    Journey, Mar 18, 2007
    #69
  10. Pinger

    Journey Guest

    OK, but Christopher accurately pointed out that there are two things
    involved here:

    1) Software purchase ethics.

    2) An unregulated monopoly.

    I think the thread has (cool, Usenet) morphed into addressing both
    topics.

    As a result of the thread my thoughts have changed, which is what good
    discussion can bring.

    - For me, I don't any longer think it's right to steal from
    Microsoft, because two wrongs (MS Monopoly) don't make a right.
    Fortunately, I don't need to steal from MS with options available to
    me.

    - I always pay for any other company's software. I bet I have spent
    the equivalent of the price of a desktop computer on really good
    software and utilities. PaperPort for example -- pricey, I could have
    easily pirated, I paid. Note: this bullet point's intended to
    clarify that any of my statements about MS software didn't apply to
    other companies. I also have gotten a _lot_ of free or deeply
    discounted software, which I am very OK with because I have the right
    to ask, and the company has the right to say yes or no. Amazingly, so
    many companies have said yes -- possibly because it's a rare request.

    (Pirating software is soooo easy. I won't tell others how, but there
    are much more effective ways than peer-to-peer.)

    - I'm going to take a look at Linux and open source software again.
    I'm intimidated by the learning curve of Linux, but I was also
    intimidated by installing a SATA hard drive, and imaging an OS state,
    things that are easy and things that people here helped me with. So,
    Linux is next.

    (any pointers to the best Linux-related newsgroups and forums so I can
    follow up there?)
     
    Journey, Mar 18, 2007
    #70
  11. Pinger

    Tom Scales Guest

    OK, my last post on this topic.



    How does MS fit the definition of a monopoly? The definitions I see
    (attributed to dictionary.com and used under copyright fair use law):

    1. exclusive control of a commodity or service in a particular market,
    or a control that makes possible the manipulation of prices. Compare
    duopoly, oligopoly.

    Clearly this doesn't apply, as they do not have exclusive control.
    You're free to use OSX or Linux, for example.


    2. an exclusive privilege to carry on a business, traffic, or service,
    granted by a government.

    Nope, no government grant here


    3. the exclusive possession or control of something.

    What exactly do the 'exclusively' possess? Windows itself? Sure, it is
    their product. Doesn't make it a monopoly. Others are free to compete and
    do.


    4. something that is the subject of such control, as a commodity or
    service.


    Again, no monopoly under this definition

    5. a company or group that has such control.

    Or this one.


    6. the market condition that exists when there is only one seller.

    Nope, already proved that one wrong.


    Being big and successful doesn't mean that you have a monopoly. Sure
    causes a lot of jealousy (which is the more appropriate word here). If you
    don't like their products, there are a number of alternatives, including
    free alternatives. Feel free to walk away from all MS products. They won't
    miss you.
     
    Tom Scales, Mar 18, 2007
    #71
  12. Pinger

    Journey Guest

    My brain has been in overdrive the last few days so I don't want to
    engage it again to try to answer this. Not avoiding it, my brain just
    needs a break.
    I can't walk away from the OS because my most useful programs only run
    on Windows. However, I am going to check out Open Office, and I
    already use Mozilla over IE.

    Any future software development, if I do some, will be using .NET,
    because it would provide the most payoff. I am esp. going to look
    into developing for Windows Mobile using .NET. Hopefully I can avoid
    C++, which I know but hate. I'd rather use C# first, VB.NET second.

    I doubt I will do that though -- soon I will be able to make use of
    the University of Wisconsin's sailing facilities. For under $200 I
    get sailboat lessons all season, access to smallest sailboats all the
    way up to large ones, catamarans, wind surfing.

    And I really do want to learn how to play the piano. I can play it by
    ear to a certain extent but want to learn how to read music.
     
    Journey, Mar 18, 2007
    #72
  13. you ignore my points and ask me more questions. a disucssion is a two way
    street. i am not esting in continuing since you are being genuine about
    this dialog.
     
    Christopher Muto, Mar 18, 2007
    #73
  14. Pinger

    Tom Scales Guest

    OK, I'll address your points (even though I said I was done with this
    thread). I think your analogy is flawed, but we'll use it.

    First, the drive home.

    Your supposition is that there are no alternatives. For every McDonalds
    that dominates, there is a Burger King and a Wendys, or, alternatively, a
    Subway and a Quiznos. You may prefer a quarter pounder, but if you are
    averse to the McDonalds monopoly, have a Subway sandwich. Less fat too.

    The same goes for Windows. It's not Microsoft's fault that there is
    momentum for their product. There are alternatives. Some, like OS/2, never
    made it successfully (don't start the MS sabotaged it thread, we don't need
    to go there for my point). OSX is certainly a legitimate alternative,
    particularly if you must have Office, since Microsoft Office is available
    for the Mac. There are others to, including the various Linux distros.
    Will you like them as much as your quarter pounder? Perhaps not, but it is
    your choice. If you don't like McDonalds, then buy OSX. No one at MS is
    forcing you to buy their products. Even if it comes on the machine, it's a
    small part of the overall cost and you can throw it in the trash.

    As for the 15 minute phone call, yes, activation is a pain. Annoying.
    Manageable. But think about it. Why IS there activation? Because way too
    many people are stealing their products. If McDonalds was losing 50+% of
    their sales of quarter pounders to hamburger theives, don't you think they
    would put some security in place? Perhaps require ID at the door to come
    in? Perhaps, like WalMart, showing your receipt as you exit for big ticket
    items? Do you have the same distain for WalMart (or Target or KMart),
    because you have to show proof of purchase at the door (or CompUSA for that
    matter). Activation is the person at the door checking your receipt. Don't
    you think MS would prefer NOT to have to use activation? Think of the
    resource they waste for people to write the code, test it and the people
    that have to answer the phone. They do it because people steal.

    Do you use Photoshop? Their activation is considerably more onerous. No
    internet connection, no Photoshop. Do you use Gimp instead, just because of
    the activation?

    The cost of the media is completely immaterial to the price of the software
    too. They have huge development costs to amortize. Even if they didn't, I'm
    pretty sure we live in a capitalist society, not a communist one. We're not
    all required to donate all our efforts for the benefit of the state. Supply
    and Demand sets prices, not the cost of a blank DVD. If you don't like the
    price they've set for Vista, don't use it! They could charge $100,000 a
    copy if they wanted. They wouldn't sell any, but last time I checked, if I
    develop a product, I get to set the price. If I get rich in the process,
    well, that's the American way and more power to the developer of something
    cool. If their product is getting stolen, then I support their efforts to
    stop the theft, even at my inconvenience.

    If I was going to complain about a monopoly, it would be the oligopoly of
    the oil companies. The price at every station on a corner is the same.
    That's collusion. Don't you find it mysterious that prices for gas are
    rising as we enter the summer driving season? Did the gas that is already
    in the refinery tanks suddenly cost Exxon more? Of course not, they are
    just ripping us off because we don't have a choice. It's not like we're all
    going to convert our cars to propane and even if we did, the same oil
    companies would jack us around. Microsoft is small potatoes in the 'ripping
    off customers' arena. $200 for Vista is trivial.

    OK, I'm out of energy. I've been moving boxes for two days and am tired.

    Tom
     
    Tom Scales, Mar 18, 2007
    #74
  15. Pinger

    Journey Guest

    Hope your move is going OK. Exxon reported $10 billion in profit! I
    think I missed an investment opportunity :)
     
    Journey, Mar 18, 2007
    #75
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