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Windows 7/Dream PC 2006 suddenly shutsdown during COH1 and COH2 beta.

Discussion in 'Nvidia' started by Skybuck Flying, Apr 18, 2013.

  1. "Paul" wrote in message
    "
    A select few power supplies, put the label on the wrong side
    of the supply. I don't know if OCZ has ever done that, but
    it has happened on other brands.

    Download the product brief, from OCZ, for the model in question.
    A representation of the label sticker, is included here, with numbers.

    http://ocz.com/consumer/download/product-briefs/psu_zt_series_product_brief.pdf

    Paul
    "

    ZT is a different model (it has higher amperes).

    I have mod X stream... got the manual lieing right in front of me ! ;) =D

    Bye,
    Skybuck.
     
    Skybuck Flying, Apr 18, 2013
    #21
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  2. Well "fok me" (not literally :))

    The GT 520 actually requires 18 amperes ?! Holy fok ?!

    And the power supply only delivers 20 amperes max ?!

    So the theory that the GT 520 might go a bit over 20 seams reasonable...

    I think we might have found our culprit ?!

    FOOOOOOOOOK.

    Why the fok does GT 520 need 18 amperes ?!?!?!?!?!?

    Bye,
    Skybuck.
     
    Skybuck Flying, Apr 18, 2013
    #22
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  3. Skybuck Flying

    Paul Guest

    29 watts divided by 12 volts equals 2.4 amps.
    That's approximate, because the video card is
    also connected to 3.3V and draws a couple watts
    from that. It draws not more than 2.4 Amps.

    So can your power supply handle 2.4 amps from the 12V rail.

    I think so.

    The "imaginative" current rating in the documentation,
    is an estimate of the *total system current* . And there's
    no way they can guess that with any accuracy. But you
    can work it out for yourself, if you want. (Work out
    power requirements for each component, add together.)

    Paul
     
    Paul, Apr 18, 2013
    #23
  4. Especially as there are other devices pulling +12V power.
    Heh, the GeForce 9600 GT requires 26. That's why I recognized the
    problem. Had a power supply that was rated for 24 amps on the
    +12V rail. Had spontaneous reboots and shutdowns, with no log
    messages, or obvious causes. Figured out it was the ps when adding
    a third usb device forced an immediate shutdown.

    Wouldn't boot with three usb devices connected. Any two of the three,
    was ok, but not all three.

    Replaced the ps with a 750 watt unit with 52 amps on the +12V rail,
    and it's been working fine since then.

    Regards, Dave Hodgins
     
    David W. Hodgins, Apr 19, 2013
    #24
  5. Perhaps you mistakenly have one of the 'crash-me' flags in the BIOS
    config set?
    ....if it is one of _those_ chipsets...

    Have fun trying all the different combinations...
    And if that does not work, try again with all available
    versions/combinations of GFX/chipset drivers etc...
     
    Johann Klammer, Apr 19, 2013
    #25
  6. Skybuck Flying

    Paul Guest

    OMG. The legend of Zelda lives on :-(

    Whacking great power supplies are not required.

    Intelligence is required !

    Think about it. Examine the evidence.

    "Wouldn't boot with three usb devices connected.
    Any two of the three, was ok, but not all three."

    On modern systems, USB bus power comes from the +5VSB rail.
    The power supply label may list

    +5VSB @ 2A

    or it might show

    +5VSB @ 3A

    When you have a problem with the system falling over, and
    the problem seems to be related to the number of USB bus
    loads, then the problem is hinting at the +5VSB rating,
    not the +12V rating. A 750W supply, has a *huge* 12V rating,
    but none of that huge rating is of any consequence, if
    the +5VSB was only 2A. It's like a weightlifter with
    huge biceps, and tiny thin ankles. You decided, to
    "make your biceps bigger", by buying a 750W supply.
    In fact, the reason you fell over, was your "ankles
    were too small". You're looking for a limitation
    in the wrong place. The limitation was elsewhere.
    If +5VSB is overloaded, and the output drops out,
    the entire system shuts off in response.

    How do I research these things ? With a clamp-on DC ammeter.
    That allows measuring each DC current flow, and determining
    current system state.

    It is highly unlikely the Geforce 9600 is "drawing 26 amps".
    When NVidia quotes a ridiculous number like that, it is
    the sum total of:

    CPU power (draws from 12V rail) CPU_watts / 12V = CPU amps
    Video card (draws mostly from 12V rail) For Skybuck, it is 2.4 amps
    Hard drive motor current, about 12V @ 0.6A per drive
    Optical drive, about 12V @ 1.0A when media is inserted
    Cooling fans, current draw is printed on fan hub, 0.1 amps

    You can work out these numbers, and you'll soon see
    that your system doesn't even come close to "26 amps".

    This is why I recommend calculating the numbers, for
    each rail, and working it out for yourself.

    I *hate* when people buy power supplies in ignorance.

    You can use a power supply sizing web site. At least
    one of the sites is getting closer to doing the calculation
    properly. The first sites offering this service (doing
    the calculation for you), were off by a factor of 2.

    I also do calculations on demand for people, when the need
    arises. Once you've determined the size, added a
    small amount of margin (say 30% margin on 12V rail),
    that should be plenty. Even my calculation is
    relatively conservative. For example, the boiler
    plate value on my optical drive, is 1.5A (2.5A on
    Blu Ray). But using my clamp-on ammeter, I checked
    one optical drive here, and with media in the
    tray it was 1.0 amps. Measurements can add some
    refinement to the calculations.

    Let's work some CPU numbers, and see how conservative
    they are.

    I have a 65W CPU in my backup computer system.

    The basic calculation is 65W / 12V = 5.42 amps

    That's the amount of 12V current, to supply an
    estimated 65W TDP for the processor.

    The VCore power converter, is a switching power
    supply. It is not 100% efficient. To hint that
    is the case, when I do power calculations for
    people, I pretend the efficiency is 90%. The
    actual figure could be 80% or 85%, it's really
    hard to guess. So I use a figure like 90%, to
    show the conversion is not 100% efficient. Now
    my estimate of CPU current becomes

    5.42 amps / 0.90 eff = 6.02 amps

    Now, let's study the actual processor. I place the
    clamp-on ammeter around the two yellow wires of the
    ATX12V 2x2 square connector.

    65W CPU (E4700 dual core) - should be 6.02 amps

    System idle - current flow 1.1 amps
    Run Prime95 100% loading - current flow 3.0 amps

    So my E4700 only uses 36 watts flat out (12 volts times 3 amps).
    Historically, some of the older S478 (Northwood) processors,
    they came very close to their TDP value. Some of the
    Core2 processors, the lower end ones, were well under
    their TDP rating. My E8400, I think it might have
    weighed in around 43 watts or so.

    Consequently, when I do a power calc, and I use TDP
    as an estimate, it may still be over-estimating the
    current draw. Neither of my two processors, draws
    the TDP value of 65W.

    For Skybuck, his system power draw is 200W. There is
    no need for a 750W or 1200W supply, they're just
    a waste of money.

    And don't forget, that all the rails count. Even
    if you have a gazillion watt supply, as long as the
    motherboard makers insist on running all the USB bus
    power from +5VSB, and the power supplies have no more
    than 3 amps to offer, there will be instances of
    systems shutting off because of it. On the older
    motherboards, a series of jumper plugs on the motherboard,
    allowed you to run some USB ports from +5V (main rail,
    good for perhaps 20 to 30 amps). Instead of the tiny
    +5VSB supply. On modern systems, they stripped the
    gold header pins, to save $0.10 per system, leaving
    a disaster to await, if too much USB loading is present.

    *******

    A Kill-O-Watt meter is cheap, and allows you to bound
    what your PC is doing. If Skybuck owned one of these,
    he could see his system power vary from 80W when the
    system was idle, to perhaps 200W when gaming. This
    would be immediate evidence, that a 750W or 1200W
    supply would be a total waste. These are cheap, and
    can tell you whether you're even getting close to the
    thermal limit of the ATX supply.

    http://www.amazon.com/P3-Internatio...F8&qid=1366349216&sr=8-2&keywords=kill-o-watt

    When you want to study system power usage, at the
    main ATX cables, you use a clamp-on ammeter to get
    the amps. Some clamp-on meters, measure AC amps only,
    and are used by central air conditioning installers.
    My meter, measures both DC amps and AC amps. And the
    PC has DC amps on the major DC outputs of the supply.

    http://www.extech.com/instruments/resources/manuals/380947_UM.pdf

    The benefits of that meter, versus a conventional ammeter.

    1) No need to cut any wires to measure current. Simply
    place the jaws around the wires and measure.
    2) Meter automatically sums the current in a series of
    wires. Clamp the jaws around the two yellow wires on
    the ATX12V 2x2 CPU power connector. The magnetic fields
    around the wires add (as the current flows in the same
    direction in each wire). That's how I can measure the CPU
    consumption.
    3) The meter uses the Hall Effect, to do the measurement.
    The meter can measure huge currents, with no thermal
    effects. The meter doesn't get hot. Conventional multimeters
    are limited, by the shunt resister inside the meter
    overheating. That's why a conventional meter has a
    fuse inline, which may blow if you overdo it. My clamp-on
    meter doesn't have that limitation. For example, I've
    measured the starter motor current on my car, at around
    120 amps (defective). The meter hardly even notices.
    Since the meter has "peak detection", I can catch the
    peaks of the starter motor consumption.

    I use the 40A DC range, for "inside the PC" work.
    I used the 400A DC range, for working on my car.
    I use the 40A AC range, when checking my central air.

    A more sensitive DC range would be nice on that meter,
    but I can live with it.

    HTH,
    Paul
     
    Paul, Apr 19, 2013
    #26
  7. Skybuck Flying

    MrTallyman Guest


    YOU ARE AN IDIOT. THAT IS WAHT THE SUPPLY IS RATED AT FULLY LOADED ON
    ALL RAILS.

    But in reality one rail IS pushed nearly to it's max. My mini ATX
    won't even consider booting with a supply of less than 300W, and even
    that one sometimes fails to have it POST up.

    I'll bet his system uses more than the number you declared.
     
    MrTallyman, Apr 19, 2013
    #27
  8. Skybuck Flying

    Paul Guest

    The supply rating, is the maximum value it can provide.
    At any instant, the power provided can vary from zero
    to the maximum value. If you draw more than the maximum
    value, the supply overheats (or OCP) and turns off.

    When you use a 750W supply, it does not draw 750W all the
    time. The power company bill does not reflect the 750W value.
    What it does reflect, is the real usage of power.

    Skybucks components draw roughly 200W, by calculation.
    200W is a value less than 450W max, of a 450W supply.
    Therefore, the supply remains running.

    The label of the supply, is actually very informative.
    Every number on there means something. The numbers
    are not there for window dressing.

    Not only does the overall supply have a maximum power
    rating (thermal limit perhaps). The supply also has
    current flow limits (when the load is unbalanced on
    the multiple rails). So it's possible to tip over
    a 750W supply, merely by drawing 20W from the 5V @ 3A
    max rail. The necessary info is on that label.

    The legend of Zelda lives on.

    Do the analysis.

    This is not a monster truck rally. It's something
    you can work out for yourself, using nothing
    more than a four function calculator. You can
    buy just the right power supply for the job,
    and have money left over for beer at the end
    of the week.

    Paul
     
    Paul, Apr 19, 2013
    #28
  9. Skybuck Flying

    MrTallyman Guest


    No shit, you retarded ****. I do not need a primer. I designed built
    power supplies for a living for years.

    I know exactly what the declaration is.

    YOU are the one who has the problem.

    And you know ****-all nothing about "skybuck" or his problem(s)

    Snipped more stupid shit
    More proof that you are clueless.

    Power supplies are rated to deliver their stated voltage into the
    stated loading level at 100% duty, always on.

    Any further loading results in a reduced regulated voltage level or an
    increased PARD or noise figure. Both of which are unacceptable on a
    "power" "supply" meant to power a specific digital device.

    So even if the meter still reads 5 Volts, it will not be within the
    noise figure spec at all.

    snipped more

    You are an idiot.

    There is no such term used in the industry.
    You mother was "tipped over".

    A 15 watt rail cannot deliver 20W regardless of the loading on the
    other rails, you stupid ditz!.

    YOU cannot "work out" anything with or without your calculator
    and you kill-a-watt device.

    and YOU probably never ever had a system where you actually taxed the
    video card to its limits.

    Ever run the CUDA app over at seti@home for a few units worth?

    Yeah... you know all about "power draw". NOT!
     
    MrTallyman, Apr 19, 2013
    #29
  10. I think I found the cause of this.

    It's actually a feature of the winfast motherboard.

    I think it shuts down if the CPU reaches the threshold of 50 degrees celcius
    as set in the bios.

    I don't know yet how it exactly works... there is also a tolerance of 5...

    Hmmm...

    Kinda funny.

    So it's overheat protection ;)

    Bye,
    Skybuck.
     
    Skybuck Flying, Jul 22, 2013
    #30
  11. Skybuck Flying

    Paul Guest

    NF4SK8AA-8EKRS

    http://www.foxconnchannel.com/ProductDetail.aspx?T=motherboard&U=en-us0000008

    http://www.foxconnchannel.com/drive...anual/English/NF4SK8AA-manual-En-V1.0.pdf.zip

    PDF page 51 "PC Health".

    It doesn't say how to adjust it, but tab to the field and try
    the "+" and "-" keys.

    Paul
     
    Paul, Jul 22, 2013
    #31
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